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Old Oct 28, 2003, 1:44 PM   #11
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PWC & Alexo,

I've tried to give you guys the benefit of the doubt that your rantings will actually do me any good in determining whether or not to purchase FZ10. As I read your numerous posts (what do you guys do for a living...get a life) I find extreme prejudice and consistent bias that you've lost all credibility. I'm not a simple "point & shoot" nor a professional photographer. I am, however, an educated shopper with an eye for quality. I have a keen interest in photography and most things that fit into my physically active lifestyle and would like to capture those rare and speciall moments that most tend to ignore. Hence, my quest for the camera that best suits my individual needs. In other words, back off!!!. Don't poo poo on something that hasn't yet fully hit the market. Leave Panasonic Bob to do his job. Until then, be patient. Again, your ejaculations only serve to confuse and bring doubt to much of what you guys have to say.
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Old Oct 28, 2003, 3:52 PM   #12
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Dear Whatever,
My post refers to the DMC-LC1, not the FZ10. Oh, perhaps you thought that this was the FZ10 forum.
What you consider to be a rant is indicative of your own mental state more than any serious knowledge of digital cameras. Therefore I suggest that you buy the FZ10. Since you have no concrete intertest in the worth of any particular feature, it should suit you just fine.
Leave concerns about such issues as running out of battery juice to those of us who take photographs. Who cares if you can't take more snapshots? Your friends will probably write thank you notes to Pansonic.
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Old Oct 28, 2003, 9:22 PM   #13
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As expected. Case closed.
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Old Oct 29, 2003, 7:39 AM   #14
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Bob states:

> Most digital cameras consume about 12W of power.

Just what does this mean? WHEN do they consume 12 watts?

!@W is a fairly substantial amount of power for a portable device. My point was that in general digital cameras draw a substantial amount of power. To extend the operating time, the design must factor in a power source which is compact yet able to deliver the required power. It need not add substantial weight nor size. If you understand today's available battery technology than you would recognize that "AA" cells are not the best choice.

The information isn't specific enough to support further calculation.
To the average consumer, you might be correct. But, to a person with an intimate knowledge of DSC's and an engineering background it's very obvious. I've received 4 PM's totally agreeing with the info I presented.

> Therefor, if a camera consumes 12W and uses (4) AA cells (each 1.2V) 12 / 4.8 = 2.5A Just how long do you expect "AA" cells to be able to deliver 2.5 amps?
If the AA cells are rated at 2000 mAH (and some are now rated higher than that), I would expect them to deliver 2.5 amps approximately 2 / 2.5 = 0.8 hour, or about 48 minutes. I realize the calculation may be more involved than that, but I'll be very surprised if it's far off.

On paper it looks fine, but in practice it doesn't play quite that way. The capacity (MAH) is an actual measurement that is calculated using a fixed load on the battery. THe load is typically only 20-30% of the actualy power a DSC uses. It's usually calculated to the point where the per cell voltage falls to 1.01 - 1.05 volts per cell.

In reality, most digital cameras will shut down long before the 1.01-1.05 volt per cell point. Since the current they draw is much higher, the discharge curve is totally different, so it's not accurately representing the life span you will see in actual use. Furthermore, your digital camera's power consumption is far from being a constant and controlled discharge, like that which is used to measure battery consumption. This is especially true each time the camera is turned on and each time you write to memory. Other variables that skew the end result are temperature, AF and whether or not the flash is used.

> Now, increase the voltage to 7.2V and we see that the current decreases to 1.66 amps.
But what is the current capacity over time of the proprietary batteries?
Newer battery technology can provide higher current on demand, sso the battery has more reserve power. The discharge curve becomes more agressive as the current increases. My point was that if we raise the voltage, thereby reducing the current, the battery will last longer. In part it's the same reason why most air conditioneers run at 220V and not at 110V. Higher voltage promotes better efficiency.
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Old Oct 29, 2003, 6:20 PM   #15
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Thanks, Bob. I do appreciate your response. And you did clear up a few issues.

I've received 4 PM's totally agreeing with the info I presented.
Indeed, I don't disagree with it, but I do continue to think that it's relatively insignificant when translated into actual practice.

The battery in my DMC-LC5 is smaller than the collective size of the four AAs in my Oly C4000, but the LC5 is still the bulkier of the two. It probably has a slight advantage in its ability to deliver bursts of high current over time, but I've gotten 150+ shots on a single charge with both cameras.

Maybe eventually the proprietary batteries will offer more substantial advantages over AAs, but for now their performance advantage is minuscule.

On the other hand, the cost advantage (to the consumer) of AAs is very large. I believe I can buy a two-hour charger and three sets of ~2000 mAH AA batteries for about the same amount I would pay for a single battery for the LC5. Which do you think will provide more shooting time?

At the same time, the combination of proprietary battery and in-camera charging means that proprietaries deliver a cost advantage to the manufacturer. So I don't expect them to go away!

The bottom line is that I would much prefer AAs in any camera that's large enough to hold four of 'em. But I wouldn't choose a camera solely on the basis of what type of battery it uses, although the use of proprietary batteries will continue to be a strike against a camera.

For what it's worth, I recently took along the LC5 during a short trip down one of the trails at the Grand Canyon. At the end of six hours, after 140 shots, the battery was showing less than full charge, but still not exhausted. Presumably I could have taken at least a few more. However much I dislike that battery, it was, unquestionably, sufficient to my needs on that occasion.
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