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Old Nov 1, 2005, 6:04 AM   #41
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PC Magazine quoted 27ml for the Canon BCI3 or now the new PG-5 pigment black and estimated a yeild of 1500 pages of text from the large black cartridge in it, rated at about a penny a page. I KNOW for a fact this HP 8250 would NOT yield 1500 pages of text with 10ml of ink in it. Canon is the only printer that carries two black cartridgeds in it, one for photo and one for black text.

The only way you'll get 1500 pages out of a bci-3e or the new pg-5 is if you are printing 700 characters per page in courier front at 10cpi. The test they are refering to is the ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 test patern. It's that image of a bike with a huge tire, color swabs in the background, misc fruit and some other stuff. At 5% yield the bci3e is rated by canon at 500p. And I have to agree my experence has been one tank prints on about one package of paper. I had a old HP 800 series taking the 45a with 42ml of black ink, very much an ink hog and even that wasn't rated at 1500p. 1500p is what you'd expect from a low end laser.

While it *might* be true that canon is the only printer that carries two black cartridges in it.... they don't for their photo printers except for the mp900.

I was shocked at the low volume offered in the vivera series of inks, but there is no doubt they are more efficent, as in more pages per ml.


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Old Nov 1, 2005, 6:36 AM   #42
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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PC Magazine quoted 27ml for the Canon BCI3 or now the new PG-5 pigment black and estimated a yeild of 1500 pages of text from the large black cartridge in it, rated at about a penny a page. I KNOW for a fact this HP 8250 would NOT yield 1500 pages of text with 10ml of ink in it. Canon is the only printer that carries two black cartridgeds in it, one for photo and one for black text.

The only way you'll get 1500 pages out of a bci-3e or the new pg-5 is if you are printing 700 characters per page in courier front at 10cpi. The test they are refering to is the ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 test patern. It's that image of a bike with a huge tire, color swabs in the background, misc fruit and some other stuff. At 5% yield the bci3e is rated by canon at 500p. And I have to agree my experence has been one tank prints on about one package of paper. I had a old HP 800 series taking the 45a with 42ml of black ink, very much an ink hog and even that wasn't rated at 1500p. 1500p is what you'd expect from a low end laser.

While it *might* be true that canon is the only printer that carries two black cartridges in it.... they don't for their photo printers except for the mp900.

I was shocked at the low volume offered in the vivera series of inks, but there is no doubt they are more efficent, as in more pages per ml.

Since the BCI-3 Black or PG-5 black is Canon's pigment black, designed for texas I highly doubt PC Magazined got their 1500 pages based on printing a picture of a bike. I'll find the article where there printed test and costed it a penny a page (of text), and cut and paste it here shortly.

Many of HP's newest tests are also based on used their "advanced paper". This is very, very THIN stock, as you can hold it up to the light and see their barcode showing through on the back. Also, just holding a 4x6 from hp's advanced paper and holding Canon's Glossy Plus 4x6 paper, one can feel that the Canon paper is the more true stock as compared to what the local Walmart photo lab would use, in terms of paper thickness and gloss layers. The HP quotes more printing on those little seperate inks when using their advanced paper and at a quality setting on the printer less than how it comes out of the box and set up (default setting, which is also a bordered print), not borderless.

But anyone, don't take my word for much, just refer to the 18th Annual Customer Satisfaction Survery from PC Magazine, which put Canon in the number one spot in every category for reliability and satisfaction, taking HP out of this ranking after they had it for 13 years in a row. That article or survery was not ONE persons's thinking, it was based from past years collections of surverys of owners of these machines, all brands.

Sebastian Rupley, PC Magazine

Among the top twelve printer manufacturers, Canon held or matched the highest score in every testing criteria.
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Old Nov 1, 2005, 6:41 AM   #43
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zakezuke wrote:
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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PC Magazine quoted 27ml for the Canon BCI3 or now the new PG-5 pigment black and estimated a yeild of 1500 pages of text from the large black cartridge in it, rated at about a penny a page. I KNOW for a fact this HP 8250 would NOT yield 1500 pages of text with 10ml of ink in it. Canon is the only printer that carries two black cartridgeds in it, one for photo and one for black text.

The only way you'll get 1500 pages out of a bci-3e or the new pg-5 is if you are printing 700 characters per page in courier front at 10cpi. The test they are refering to is the ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 test patern. It's that image of a bike with a huge tire, color swabs in the background, misc fruit and some other stuff. At 5% yield the bci3e is rated by canon at 500p. And I have to agree my experence has been one tank prints on about one package of paper. I had a old HP 800 series taking the 45a with 42ml of black ink, very much an ink hog and even that wasn't rated at 1500p. 1500p is what you'd expect from a low end laser.

While it *might* be true that canon is the only printer that carries two black cartridges in it.... they don't for their photo printers except for the mp900.

I was shocked at the low volume offered in the vivera series of inks, but there is no doubt they are more efficent, as in more pages per ml.

Here is the Review: I REALIZE THIS IS THE MP760 - but it's the SAME ENGINE AND INK SET as the MP780 and MP750.

"Cost of Ownership

The MP 760 uses uses 5 ink cartridges, 4 dye based inks (magenta, yellow, cyan, black) for photo printing and one larger pigment based black ink cartridge for text printing. The dye based ink cartridges run $10-$12 each, while the larger black text cartridge costs about $12-$15. Most reviews I've read indicate that Canon printers are the most economical available, which has been my experience also.

Canon rates the black cartridge at 1500 pages of text containing 1500 characters, at the standard print setting. (I find my MS Word documents, which are single spaced, contain about 2000-2500 characters per page, while double spaced pages contain around 1500 characters). On average, printing b/w text documents will about a penny per page, about the best you can find with an inkjet printer.

The color cartridges are rated for about 400-500 pages per cartridge at 5% coverage. Printing documents with a few color graphics or text will run 3-5 cents per page. "


http://www.epinions.com/content_188584332932




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Old Nov 1, 2005, 6:52 AM   #44
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zakezuke wrote:
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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PC Magazine quoted 27ml for the Canon BCI3 or now the new PG-5 pigment black and estimated a yeild of 1500 pages of text from the large black cartridge in it, rated at about a penny a page. I KNOW for a fact this HP 8250 would NOT yield 1500 pages of text with 10ml of ink in it. Canon is the only printer that carries two black cartridgeds in it, one for photo and one for black text.

The only way you'll get 1500 pages out of a bci-3e or the new pg-5 is if you are printing 700 characters per page in courier front at 10cpi. The test they are refering to is the ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 test patern. It's that image of a bike with a huge tire, color swabs in the background, misc fruit and some other stuff. At 5% yield the bci3e is rated by canon at 500p. And I have to agree my experence has been one tank prints on about one package of paper. I had a old HP 800 series taking the 45a with 42ml of black ink, very much an ink hog and even that wasn't rated at 1500p. 1500p is what you'd expect from a low end laser.

While it *might* be true that canon is the only printer that carries two black cartridges in it.... they don't for their photo printers except for the mp900.

I was shocked at the low volume offered in the vivera series of inks, but there is no doubt they are more efficent, as in more pages per ml.

Here is the Cnet Review:

http://reviews.cnet.com/Canon_Pixma_...4.html?tag=top

"The large black ink tank costs $13.95; the four smaller cartridges are $11.95 each; it costs $61.75 to replace the set. Estimates arethat the large black tank will last for 1,500 pages of text, nearly a penny per page of excellent inkjet value. We roughly estimate that nonphotographic color prints would run about 2 cents per page, low for an inkjet".

WOW! :| <==== Grabs his 20D to take a snapshot!

PC Magainze and Cnet and very respected in the world of consumber electronics and are among the best where many people also then put in there user opinions after having owned a specific unit/device.

Sometimes the numbers that Cnet and PC Magazine use are based off a 1/3 page of typewriter text. Using a similiar test, the b3e-bk would print on about 1500 pages, where 5% yield is 500 pages according to Canon. This conslusion is smart; some other unnammed companies (Lexmark), LOL got sued for this publishing JIS-SCID yields as reality.

Just multiply the c-net numbers by 3 and it's still pretty good.


Of course, being unofficial, results and yield can be based on personal experience, too. I did quote an earlier posting of yours to see if you would be consistent with what you say and aparently you felt the need to be down the exact numbers again. I was impressed. To post though, what I've experienced myself, being unofficial, I did the photography of my 5th wedding party, using my Canon EOS 10D, taking pictures are the highest setting (6MP RAW, converting over to TIFF), after the wedding couple chose the pictures they wanted, and starting with a full set of each color in the machine, I printed 78 borderless 5"x7" prints; 6 8.5"x11" borderless prints and 50 wallett size prints off of Canon's newest credit card paper (all paper being Glossy Photo Paper Plus and printing at the highest setting, using Canon Photo Record software adjusting with Photo Optimizer and the printer ONLY required the Magenta to be replaced, at the END of all of this printing. As expected, the other colors were less than half gone,down to a quarter left, but still not necessary to replace them. I was VERY impressed! I would NOT have acheived this result using the HP8250, printing at their highest setting, using their Premium glossy paper (especially with tanks like theirs where one of them hold 3.5ml of ink); just figuring out the math of how much money it takes for both of these brand, ml for ml, HP does cost more and does print at the same quantity NOR at the same DPI. In our recent comparisons at the computer store where I do some part-time work, HP's best machine, ONLY prints out at 4800"x2400 DPI, Canon's highest setting, which I used, is printing at the highest DPI on record in the industry right now, 9600"x2400" dpi and putting down 1Pico Litre ink droplets, consistently. HP does not even taut how small their ink droplet is, because even their "new" print head, which is NOW made in a similiar fashion to Canon (the manufacturing process that you and I have discussed before at length, and you'll know what I mean when I say "photolithography", or "silicon chip"), process, still doesn't compare to Canon; and this is because their new photolithography process cannot lay down a ink droplet lower than 4 pico litres in size. It took a lot of digging and referencing manuals, but finally I came across data from HP that says 4 pico litres. Also, if you use their advanced paper (that new paper with the bar-code), on the back and put it at their "worlds fastest" setting to achieve a 14 second print (bordered), by the way, and that is one setting for them to actually get 14 seconds, you can literally "COUNT" LOL, and SEE the pixelation (dots), on the finished print. After I get my scanner hooked back up, I'll scan in both prints we did at our store. Obviously, you're probably seeing me hint that I just got the new Canon MP950! OH YEAH! It's SOO COOL. 7 Ink Cartridges; it's essentially the new Canon IP6600d engine and ink set, adding the large, pigment based black for text (PG-5). With a scan engine and scanning ability approximately like their scanner, 8400F, with batch negative and 35mm and slide scanning capability with FARE3 under the hood. IT's SOO COOL. This new machine just HIT the stores (it was released about 3 to 4 weeks ago officially). It's worth all the money. Thank you for your reply on yield, I hope and believe you're getting satisfying results as I am. Here's a good hint; have a garage sale again like I've done, sell your MP760 and get the new one!!! OH YEAH!


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Old Nov 1, 2005, 3:41 PM   #45
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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Since the BCI-3 Black or PG-5 black is Canon's pigment black, designed for texas I highly doubt PC Magazined got their 1500 pages based on printing a picture of a bike. I'll find the article where there printed test and costed it a penny a page (of text), and cut and paste it here shortly.
That is "exactly" where those numbers are comming from. Here are the offical numbers
PIXMA iP4000:

BCI-3eBK: 740 pages (1,500 character pattern, plain paper / standard mode)
1,500 pages (ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 / plain paper / standard mode)
BCI-6C: 550 pages (ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 / plain paper / standard mode)
BCI-6M: 430 pages (ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 / plain paper / standard mode)
BCI-6Y: 360 pages (ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 / plain paper / standard mode)
BCI-6BK: 2,000 pages (ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 / plain paper / standard mode)

Quote:
Canon rates the black cartridge at 1500 pages of text containing 1500 characters, at the standard print setting. (I find my MS Word documents, which are single spaced, contain about 2000-2500 characters per page, while double spaced pages contain around 1500 characters).

And yes the mp760 would be idential. I own one. One tank is good for about a pack of paper. Edit: as you can see above canon doesn't say 1500 characters 1500 pages, they say "1,500 character patern" which is done in courier 10 characters per inch. This is a throwback to the dotmatrix and daisy wheel days, and even then it was hardly a relevent number, less so today with proportional fonts. This person on http://www.epinions.com/ is grossly misquoting Canon.

The bci-3e is large, the price is reasonable but it's no 1500pages of anything above and beyond 700 characters of courier front at 10cpi. It's 500p @ 5% yield. That's a good solid estimate of a full page of text using a proportional font like Arial or Tahoma. Also the color is rated at about 280p @ 5% yield.

But consider that the bci-3e is about 25pages/ml @ 5% yield. Where the HP #96 black is rated at 38p/ml @ 5% yield. A 10ml cartrage at the same efficency rating is going to be about 380p at the very least. But with added tweeks it wouldn't shock me if this number was higher due to the fact that the 8250 uses a closed loop purge system.

Enclosed in as image of the i860 yields and a small image of the ISO JIS-SCID test.



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Old Nov 1, 2005, 7:14 PM   #46
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zakezuke wrote:
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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Since the BCI-3 Black or PG-5 black is Canon's pigment black, designed for texas I highly doubt PC Magazined got their 1500 pages based on printing a picture of a bike. I'll find the article where there printed test and costed it a penny a page (of text), and cut and paste it here shortly.
That is "exactly" where those numbers are comming from. Here are the offical numbers
PIXMA iP4000:

BCI-3eBK: 740 pages (1,500 character pattern, plain paper / standard mode)
1,500 pages (ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 / plain paper / standard mode)
BCI-6C: 550 pages (ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 / plain paper / standard mode)
BCI-6M: 430 pages (ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 / plain paper / standard mode)
BCI-6Y: 360 pages (ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 / plain paper / standard mode)
BCI-6BK: 2,000 pages (ISO JIS-SCID No. 5 / plain paper / standard mode)

Quote:
Canon rates the black cartridge at 1500 pages of text containing 1500 characters, at the standard print setting. (I find my MS Word documents, which are single spaced, contain about 2000-2500 characters per page, while double spaced pages contain around 1500 characters).

And yes the mp760 would be idential. I own one. One tank is good for about a pack of paper. Edit: as you can see above canon doesn't say 1500 characters 1500 pages, they say "1,500 character patern" which is done in courier 10 characters per inch. This is a throwback to the dotmatrix and daisy wheel days, and even then it was hardly a relevent number, less so today with proportional fonts. This person on http://www.epinions.com/ is grossly misquoting Canon.

The bci-3e is large, the price is reasonable but it's no 1500pages of anything above and beyond 700 characters of courier front at 10cpi. It's 500p @ 5% yield. That's a good solid estimate of a full page of text using a proportional font like Arial or Tahoma. Also the color is rated at about 280p @ 5% yield.

But consider that the bci-3e is about 25pages/ml @ 5% yield. Where the HP #96 black is rated at 38p/ml @ 5% yield. A 10ml cartrage at the same efficency rating is going to be about 380p at the very least. But with added tweeks it wouldn't shock me if this number was higher due to the fact that the 8250 uses a closed loop purge system.

Enclosed in as image of the i860 yields and a small image of the ISO JIS-SCID test.



OH, BTW, :blah: With the posting from here, I'm printing on Cd's and DVD's, the matte ones and the silver reflextive printable media! The 6600d can also be coverted to print on cd/dvd now.

Oh, LASTLY:blah: did I mention I save $100 on my car insurance by switching to GEICO? LOL


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Old Nov 1, 2005, 7:47 PM   #47
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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OH, BTW, :blah: With the posting from here, I'm printing on Cd's and DVD's, the matte ones and the silver reflextive printable media! The 6600d can also be coverted to print on cd/dvd now.


I have no personal experence with the ip6600D, hince not publishing it. I only just recently started seeing it in stores. And the ip6600D doesn't offer the big black.

But the issue was the new hp 8250 and the oddball sizes, siting that 13ml and 25ml was superior, and you really can't look at volume alone, and the ip6600d doesn't have a 26ml tank AFAIK. While volume is a factor page yield is a more major one. It looks like the HP8250 does cost a tad more per page than canon... though i'm not positive on the black tank. I'm awaiting more info on the subject. Just like the HP #96 also costs more per page, but using the "same" measurement of 5% yield it's rated at 800p, vs 500p.

The last explanation I got on the odd ball sizes was the fact that they took it upon them selves to approximate actual use of their colors. I have to admit I don't like it even if it means swapping more than one cartridge at a time. . I do like the idea of a closed loop system to prime and clean the nozzles. That beats a diaper change anyday.

I to am printing DVDs, though for me I'm using TDKs from costco. I'm still on the ip3000 and mp760 as i've only owned them for 4 to 6 months or so.
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Old Nov 1, 2005, 10:26 PM   #48
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ok I have to ask, which paper is the best to minimize fading with the Canons? I was literally this ( || ) close to buying an R800 today (was getting quit a deal on it about $240 Canadian ~ $205 US) it was used for literally 2 days.

But I decided I didnt need it and let him sell it to someone else. (I know I wouldnt be able to afford ink, although the PIGMENT ink's properties were VERY appealing, I ALMOST bought it.

So which paper is the best to minimize fading with canon's inks? (BTW I have an MP760)
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Old Nov 2, 2005, 4:34 AM   #49
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But I decided I didnt need it and let him sell it to someone else. (I know I wouldnt be able to afford ink, although the PIGMENT ink's properties were VERY appealing, I ALMOST bought it.

So which paper is the best to minimize fading with canon's inks? (BTW I have an MP760)
The last bit of the OEM ink I used on epson glossy paper faded within weeks. The pr-101 stuff, the stuff they advertise 25years under glass I have to admit i've not noticed faiding too much after sitting on my sill since late june. Unfortunatly the cat also likes that sill since I used it to test paper and the test prints are among the missing.

I'll have to test the kirkland photo paper, as in date it and put it on the sill. It's not as spendy but at least is microporous. But generally speaking canon is very low on the lightfast scale.

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Old Nov 2, 2005, 4:05 PM   #50
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The R1800 and 2400 do not even so much as have a PictBridge port on the machine for direct printing. Now I understand the response will be that ALL professionals will dotheir editing using the software, but MAN withsome of the awesome cameras out today, like the Rebel, 20D,EOS 5D and so on...it's Not hard to take a great shot and get it right the first time. Now while HP puts cardslots on their wide format consumer line modelin the store, I believe that is a little over board. Since Pictbridge is now an accepted industry wide, standard for direct camera to printer printing and allows you the same freedom of the printer with the LCD screen and cropping options, those two Epson's should have at least had that.
Are you really trying to tell me that you can tell that a photo is customer perfect and ready to print from the little screen, either on the camera or on the printer? Please let me kneel and kiss your feet. The bestI can generally do is tell garbage / not garbage. Not garbage is not a critical evaluation of the readiness of a photo, merely a first impression. The cameras are good. Some are great. But a great photographer can take a better picture with a box camera from Walmart than most people can take with the best of digital cameras. That doesn't mean that the pro's photo doesn't need editing. It means (s)he has a better starting point.

Pictbridge is for snapshots. You want to print a bunch of party photo's and don't want the bother of going through the computer. Of course, if you are going to follow your own advice and make and effort to preserve the electronic copy of the photo, you need to go through the computer anyway. Personally, I wouldn't even print the snapshots without first previewing them on the computer, but that's my choice.

I have an Epson R1800 which replaced an R800. Both have served me well. I've printed CDs without making any modifications to the printer or software, nor spending 6 months (or so) on this site trying to figure out how to make it work. It just did. I did, however, get a good giggle out of the running conversation. As long as Canon doesn't include the capability, as delivered, they will never have my business, no matter what else they put on the printer. When enough people take that stance, then Canonwill include CD printing capability or not sell printers.

The fact is that all three brands of printers put out prints that are of excellent quality, and that's why I can ignore a printer that doesn't print CDs. There are differences in the formulations of the ink that affect the print life, but even careful selection of ink and paper combination can alleviate some problems. I have 3 year old prints from my old HP DJ1220Cthat still have clear, vibrant color, even compared to a new print. And they are just tacked up in my office, with no special treatment. Of course, the colors from that printer are not quite as accurate and lifelike as those from my Epson, but you have to look with a critical eye to see the difference. However, other prints that were not printed on as good an ink / paper combo clearly faded under the same lighting conditions.

Of course, since they won't print on CDs, I haven't examined Canon prints from the current printers. Have they toned down the colors yet, or are they still "brighter than life"? That's always been my complaint with the Canon printers is their perception of color. I don't mind adjusting the printer to get an accurate print, but a good starting point is not an unreasonable request.

Cheers, Eric


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