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Old Jun 23, 2005, 5:25 PM   #11
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:blah: I would think that Canon does in-fact understand how to produce colors accurately, otherwise their film and digital cameras would not have the highest percentageof market share, worldwide now, going on three years. My neighbor shoots with Canons, having the 20D and the Mark II 16.7MP professional digital SLR, uses the Canon i9900 for proof prints and usese their Image ProGraff (pigment base), for selling prints. Digital cameras read a larger color space than standard sRGB, which is called YCC. Canon printers, (their drivers and software), read this color space to more accurately produce the color range from what the camera sees, even past what typical computer monitors can display. This is a standard among digital cameras to "tag" these shooting modes, called "Exif 2.2" data and with Canon, their printers read this information. Epson primarily uses their own technology, "PIM" Print Image Matching to match camera shot to printer output accuracy. As far as I have researched, only their parent company, Olympus, is compatible with PIM, all other digital cameras on the market tag the "Exif" data and the Canon printers more accuartely read this information to produce a picture more accuarte to what the Camera saw when it shot the image. It's no secret that Canon is a world leader in "Imaging", while, for example, HP has lost over 22% market share in just the last three years alone. If anyone would like to read Canon's technical documents on their color reproduction methodsin all of their imaging products and also how their printers read the expanded color space, YCC, follow these links:

http://bubblejet.canon.com.my/exif3.htm

http://www.canon.com/technology/pdf/tech2005e.pdf

If anyone wants to visit my neighbors online store, or doesn't believe me that he shoots and prints with Canon and makes a living off of it, let me know. As far as the documents I put links for people to read, whoever doesn't believe Canon's claims on theirtechnologies should put their money where their mouth is and sue them. Over the last 10 years for example, HP, Lexmark and Epson have been sued over misclaims about their products more times that I can count on two hands and two feet. While just in the last two years, Epson and HP have been sued (even brought to class action status), over claims about their ink cartridges. Now isn't that sad? Lastly, I'm not saying that Epson and HP aren't good contendors. After all, Canon manufactures all of HP's laser based products and HP has an industry standard name in laser, for now. If I had to choose between Epson and HP, it would be Epson. I am aware, as a retail specialist and investor, that Epson is a strong contendor and for a long time, has been the printer of choice for professionals.Canon has forever been the professional camera of choice, there is no doubt on that. However, when one looks at the data that comes in each retail year, lets say for the last 5 years, that HP has lost market share (recall on NBC news, HP just recently fired their CEO), Epson has gained slightly, and Canon is now at it's highest percentage of market share,ever. I'm not even talking about the camera market, this is just the "printer" segment of each company's business. Canon must be doing something right.
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Old Jun 23, 2005, 8:25 PM   #12
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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:blah: I would think that Canon does in-fact understand how to produce colors accurately, otherwise their film and digital cameras would not have the highest percentageof market share, worldwide now, going on three years. My neighbor shoots with Canons, having the 20D and the Mark II 16.7MP professional digital SLR, uses the Canon i9900 for proof prints and usese their Image ProGraff (pigment base), for selling prints. Digital cameras read a larger color space than standard sRGB, which is called YCC. Canon printers, (their drivers and software), read this color space to more accurately produce the color range from what the camera sees, even past what typical computer monitors can display. This is a standard among digital cameras to "tag" these shooting modes, called "Exif 2.2" data and with Canon, their printers read this information. Epson primarily uses their own technology, "PIM" Print Image Matching to match camera shot to printer output accuracy. As far as I have researched, only their parent company, Olympus, is compatible with PIM, all other digital cameras on the market tag the "Exif" data and the Canon printers more accuartely read this information to produce a picture more accuarte to what the Camera saw when it shot the image. It's no secret that Canon is a world leader in "Imaging", while, for example, HP has lost over 22% market share in just the last three years alone. If anyone would like to read Canon's technical documents on their color reproduction methodsin all of their imaging products and also how their printers read the expanded color space, YCC, follow these links:

http://bubblejet.canon.com.my/exif3.htm

http://www.canon.com/technology/pdf/tech2005e.pdf

If anyone wants to visit my neighbors online store, or doesn't believe me that he shoots and prints with Canon and makes a living off of it, let me know. As far as the documents I put links for people to read, whoever doesn't believe Canon's claims on theirtechnologies should put their money where their mouth is and sue them. Over the last 10 years for example, HP, Lexmark and Epson have been sued over misclaims about their products more times that I can count on two hands and two feet. While just in the last two years, Epson and HP have been sued (even brought to class action status), over claims about their ink cartridges. Now isn't that sad? Lastly, I'm not saying that Epson and HP aren't good contendors. After all, Canon manufactures all of HP's laser based products and HP has an industry standard name in laser, for now. If I had to choose between Epson and HP, it would be Epson. I am aware, as a retail specialist and investor, that Epson is a strong contendor and for a long time, has been the printer of choice for professionals.Canon has forever been the professional camera of choice, there is no doubt on that. However, when one looks at the data that comes in each retail year, lets say for the last 5 years, that HP has lost market share (recall on NBC news, HP just recently fired their CEO), Epson has gained slightly, and Canon is now at it's highest percentage of market share,ever. I'm not even talking about the camera market, this is just the "printer" segment of each company's business. Canon must be doing something right.
The statement "they must be doing something right" is a tool managers and marketing uses to win arguments without backing up their statement with facts. This reduces the value of people to sheep that should just follow the flock without using their own abilities of independent thought. The statement boils down to the world is right you are wrong and how dare you question the collective consciousness. It's condescending, belittling, and down right rude. Just like referring to the man at Staples as being a "canon hater" because he believed it would be a better idea and cheaper to go with printshop dye sub printing of photographs than with a consumer grade inkjet. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make their opinion irrational. I'm impressed that some guy at Staples would have the thoughtfulness to recommend professional printing esp since it tends to be 29 a 4x6 which, to be fair, would likely outlast something printed with the bci-6e inks.


And all these statements like "Canon has forever been the professional camera of choice, there is no doubt on that." are making my head hurt. You're making me feel shameful for owning two Canons. Are you saying that anyone who doesn't pick a Canon isn't a professional? I rather thought that a buyer whether a professional or amateur would look at the available options and pick a camera that best matches their needs. Like Olympus in the olden days for stellar photography and microscope work, Konica for their low distortion wide angle lenses that still fetch thousands of dollars on e-bay or pancake 40mm lens that the whole package would fit in a shirt pocket and glass that comes close to matching that of Leica, Canon for their fluorine crystal telephotos and tilt and shift lenses for architectural photography, Nikon for their ruggedness and long history of downward compatibility, and Pentax K-mount that has the best history in lens compatibility and downward compatibility and heck the k-1000 is still recommended by many a photographic teacher. But all of those has nothing to do with color accuracy of their consumer grade inkjet printers or the topic at hand the benifit of a 4 color printer plus 2 light inks or printer with a wider gambut.


When someone asked about 64bit support for the Canon consumer inkjet line they were told, "We are not producing drivers for this OS at present as Canon have deemed XP 64 as a non standard OS designed for professional high end use." These are not my words but the words of support, suggesting that canon doesn't intend their consumer inkjet line to be used by professional high end use.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=24004


I'm intimately familiar with a number of Canon engines employed on laser printers esp their classic SX engine that was in production for over a decade IIRC. But again not the issue.


Also I thought you said earlier that Canon refused to touch pigments because of their tenancy to clog. I was familiar with their higher end printers using pigments but let this slide as I thought you were just marketing their consumer line. Again... not the issue.


Proprietary standards such as Exif or PIF are not the issue either. I won't get started on the headaches abut using Exif in Adobe, but we're talking about color accuracy of consumer grade inkjet printers and you're giving me the marketing speech. Not the issue if you're dealing with 32bit images that the colors are right in the first place. Nothing at all to do with whether to go with a 4 color model, 4+2 or 6+2 printer.


The issue, I was talking about which if you actually researched consumer complaints on the ip4000, ip5000, ip6000, and ip8500 is using the default settings end up being purple rather than blue. Now you got a neighbor who uses the ip9900 that uses the printer for proofs. Great, more power to him. Why not get them to share their profiles, color curves to compensate for the drivers wacky behavior so someone like my self can actually achieve more consistent results. Otherwise, my only resolve is to experiment with intensities wasting my bucks on ink that otherwise could go to making prints.


I'm not a Canon hater but rather a Canon owner. Two cameras with a modest collection of glass and two printers recently bought. I don't need the marketing speech I was already sold on their printers based based solely on mechanical dependability, but alas not their accuracy for rendering colors.


Let me show you what I am talking about, Enclosed you'll find 9 images. I'll mark which ones are which and site my source later. Look look through them and pick which ones match the original most closely. Later I will repost the image and which printer is which and site my source. Compair each one to the bottom image which was the source bitmap.


It's my hope in doing this to actually illustrate what i'm talking about with periwinkle skies and purple pandas and actually help out the original poster with their question in the first place.... "do I need 6 or 8 cartages". Let's see what photo you pick, let's see what photo 356frog picks. I'm disqualified as I know which one is which and wouldn't want to introduce bias. This isn't about your belief or my belief, it's about some guy who wants to buy a printer.






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Old Jun 23, 2005, 8:49 PM   #13
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:idea: It's funny, but we are both correct. That is what it's all about fitting someone into the right product for them.I have been working for Canon in the retail sales, consumer and professional arenafor several years now. I have worked in the highest retail markets in the country (US), and I believe I know how to "Qualify" a customer and find out what their needs are. I bet if you and I were in any retail chain or camera specifc store (I've worked in them all), both selling digital cameras and photo printers, I could out-sell you at least 3 to 1. My sales numbers, and in 3 of the largest metropolitan markets in the US have proved to outsell against HP and Epson at least 3 to 1. Ever customer I encounter I believe I can qualify and find out what their needs are and fit them into a Canon of some sort to which they will be satisfied, no matter what brand of camera they have; you are right, they all have their pluses and minuses. Finally, in my statement about market share, which you didn't touch onbecuase either you haven't seen the published numbers or really know that I'm right, this is what I was referring to when I said that Canon is doing something right. My state of backing that up was in-fact the increase they've had in world wide market share over the last 5 years total. But again, it's about helping someone choose a printer. There is another thread on here of someone that is getting the BCI-7 series of Canon ink from Japan and trying them out on their printer here in the US. I was floored to see that someone is getting them here. So, it is possible to attain these inks. The update for the driver is also listed on another thread by another user. There's no question that the BCI-6 series ink provides the most vividness in color printing, and according to the Wilhelm research, prints will last at least 35-40 years without fading and 100 years in a photo album. I just think that if someone is using digital, they are doing so because they do not want to buy film and pay for processing; and some sort of consumber photo printer would work. To use digital and then take the stick in for processing and have the pharmacy print images is going backward, but that is my opinion. Both Epson and Canon quote around 29 cents per 4"x6" respectively on their machines. I'm not sure on HP, but we all know the story on tri-color tanks and chip driven ink monitors. What's next now?
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Old Jun 23, 2005, 8:52 PM   #14
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:idea: It would be a shame if no one else is reading these and getting some sort of asumement out of these posts, lol. I wonder what the guy thinks that posted the original question for help, lol. It's all in fun though.
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Old Jun 23, 2005, 10:22 PM   #15
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:idea: It's funny, but we are both correct. That is what it's all about fitting someone into the right product for them.I have been working for Canon in the retail sales, consumer and professional arenafor several years now. I have worked in the highest retail markets in the country (US), and I believe I know how to "Qualify" a customer and find out what their needs are. I bet if you and I were in any retail chain or camera specifc store (I've worked in them all), both selling digital cameras and photo printers, I could out-sell you at least 3 to 1. My sales numbers, and in 3 of the largest metropolitan markets in the US have proved to outsell against HP and Epson at least 3 to 1. Ever customer I encounter I believe I can qualify and find out what their needs are and fit them into a Canon of some sort to which they will be satisfied, no matter what brand of camera they have; you are right, they all have their pluses and minuses. Finally, in my statement about market share, which you didn't touch onbecuase either you haven't seen the published numbers or really know that I'm right, this is what I was referring to when I said that Canon is doing something right. My state of backing that up was in-fact the increase they've had in world wide market share over the last 5 years total. But again, it's about helping someone choose a printer. There is another thread on here of someone that is getting the BCI-7 series of Canon ink from Japan and trying them out on their printer here in the US. I was floored to see that someone is getting them here. So, it is possible to attain these inks. The update for the driver is also listed on another thread by another user. There's no question that the BCI-6 series ink provides the most vividness in color printing, and according to the Wilhelm research, prints will last at least 35-40 years without fading and 100 years in a photo album. I just think that if someone is using digital, they are doing so because they do not want to buy film and pay for processing; and some sort of consumber photo printer would work. To use digital and then take the stick in for processing and have the pharmacy print images is going backward, but that is my opinion. Both Epson and Canon quote around 29 cents per 4"x6" respectively on their machines. I'm not sure on HP, but we all know the story on tri-color tanks and chip driven ink monitors. What's next now?
Respectfully... I'm not trying to sell anything. I don't represent any printer or imaging company in anyway what so ever. I came to this forum to find out information on printers and papers, benefit from the wisdom of others, and contribute my own personal experiences an information in regards to products offered. I am by all reports a hacker and a geek. I have no social skills, drove and raced with a 1979 toyota corolla for 250,000miles, and don't take shinola from my hardware. I employ the use of soldering irons, spanners, blowtorches and hammers to adapt what I have with what I need. I drive a modest japanese import which for the time being is slightly more valuable than my PCs and equipment, but that's only because it was time to give my 20+ yo car to one of the kids for their first experence. From what I've observed your intent is to see every legitimate request for technical assistance and offer the resolution of buy something else. Heck I even saw you say the reason that an HP printer failed was because it wasn't a Canon. I'm sure one of the best ways to "qualify" a customer is to fine ones who are having issues with their printer and say the resolution is to buy a new one, but canon has such a decent product that it shouldn't have to resort to such underhanded tactics, they can stand alone on their own merit.

I didn't touch bases on market share because I don't care. I'm not a sheep but I make an informed choice based on what products are offered and what they can do for me. Canon makes some really spiffy products and it's wrong to reduce a the prime reason to choose them cause a bunch of other people buy them. Again with is "Canon must be doing something right"... employing people to hit every website and blog to promote their products perhaps? Counter techical problems with market shares? More people can't be wrong? Spice Girls outsold the Beatles but I'd sooner buy the White album call me silly.

Known issue. Color accuracy, non color fast inks. Huge negative. BCI-7 might resolve this, but only time will tell. I'll wait till I actually see them. For the time being I'll stick with solutions offered by MIS, Image Specialists, and perhaps Media Street. I have at least seen these, some inks also tested by wilhelm-research in the 100+ range. Canon being one of many experts in the photography and imagery field have the ability to correct this issue. They should as these small time 3rd party folks are doing a bang up job providing a products that expand the capabilities of consumer grade inkjet printers and are serving to make it a more respected medium for fine art and photo printing. I haven't seen what market share they have as I don't care but hey.

It would be nice to actually get resolution on the color issue that has plagued the canons since the i series. I hate the fact that Epson out of the box is closer to being spot on with the colors in a photograph than Canon even though Canon has mechanicaly superior product and less prone to clogging.

But at the end of these rants, soap boxes, and firm beliefs it boils down to one thing, some guy who asked a question about printer options. Could be the i960, fine choice sub $100. They might want to save money and go with the more tradtional 4 color design. Since i'm not a sales man nor do I represent Canon or any other printing / imaging company, I don't care. At the end of the day, he (or she) knows what's right for them.

But while your at it, tell Canon to get off their lazy colective tookus and bring CD printing to the Americas. While I prefered the Epson's ability to do white text on a black background at 3pt... I enjoy a printer that lasts more than 6 months or I can repair much more.





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Old Jun 23, 2005, 10:56 PM   #16
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Hello; I would like to thank the two of you for the rsponses which were educational and several levels above me.

I should have mentioned that I have a Canon 5 MP camera and a Epson text printer. I would like to get a photo printer that would give a good print so that I may acquire the discerning eye that you have.

It seems that the Canon IP8500 would be a reasonable choice at this time in the learning experience??

Of the photo's that you posted I lean towards the upper right photo 6 ink, although my eyes are not what they used to be. It will be interesting to see your post in that regards.



Regards,

Bill
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Old Jun 24, 2005, 12:21 AM   #17
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356frog wrote:
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Hello; I would like to thank the two of you for the rsponses which were educational and several levels above me.

I should have mentioned that I have a Canon 5 MP camera and a Epson text printer. I would like to get a photo printer that would give a good print so that I may acquire the discerning eye that you have.

It seems that the Canon IP8500 would be a reasonable choice at this time in the learning experience??

Of the photo's that you posted I lean towards the upper right photo 6 ink, although my eyes are not what they used to be. It will be interesting to see your post in that regards.
Actually i'm quite color blind... I'm totally dependent on using red and green gels to make valued color judgements, or looking at my glasses and seeing the prisum effect. Discering eye? I bought a pair of green seude shoes thinking they were a nice tasteful match to my grey suit. I have never seen pink in my life and violets do look rather blue, and my grass is just the perfect shade of orange after a good rain.

But what Epson? Some of those Dura ink based epsons are very spiffy if costing a tad more per page.

But I would lean tward either the i960 even though vivid in my eyes looks like they slapped a bunch of red everywhere and added too much yellow to red shades. For some reason the general population likes vivid. It's so cheap and the same basic thing as the ip6000 save the refinements in the case and paper handling and fancy LCD screen. The light inks do help to produce a beautiful smooth sky and mellows out facial features to look less, well, dotty. You'll be spending extra on those inks. The price mark from tigerdirect.com is so low.... $70 referb or $80 non. $20 shipping there and abouts. About the cost of the ink +$3.00 each one. *edit the $80 one is a rebate deal... the reberb is $70 or $80 with paper i never heard of before.

If not that than and ip4000 or an ip5000. To me the classic 4 color is less warm than the 4+2 and 6+2 versions. Plus text printing is cheaper on the Canon if you wanted a multi purpose printer. Color fine tuning if nessicary can be adjusted with some people by other people... i'm still in the cursing stage.

Spending $300 on the ip8500 doesn't seem wise esp since as someone pointed out canon is comming out with new inks that might technicaly require a new head. And it's my belief that more color refinement is needed on the current 6+2 color printers, unless i'm wearing my photo greys.


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Old Jun 24, 2005, 6:43 AM   #18
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:idea: Philips owns the rights, patents and licensing to the cd/dvd printing capability. Which is not avaiable over here due to a licensing issue, however, there is a whole thread dedicated to making the US canon pixma models print cd/dvds. I've read and contributed to that thread and the users on here have made it work. The cd/dvd trays can be either made or purchased on e-bay. The software, downloaded and the drivers/registry changed in the printer/OS to make it work. Plus there is a web site, in which a US company imports the Canon UK printers from overseas and sends them here for us to purchase. They come w/a voltage adapter/plug to so no issue on that.
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Old Jun 24, 2005, 6:56 AM   #19
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Bill, - I won't say too much more becuase my comments, opinioins and "merchandising" cliches will be bashed in a matter of minutes from posting, lol. I think that the ip8500 would be a good choice. You mentioned you have a Canon 5MP camera and that right there makes a good combination. You also have the Pictbridge port on the printer for you to do direct printing without a computer, any size and with the ability to crop on the camera before sending the picture to the printer. You can also make a few color changes/enhancements on the camera before sending the picture to the printer via the pictbridge cable you received with the camera. I have print samples from this whole past spring I could send you if you would let me know what model Canon 5MP camera you have. At the retail store I work at, we test all the cameras, take shots in and outside the store and print them out directly for display.
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Old Jun 24, 2005, 1:16 PM   #20
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Mr. ISAPS GUY; I appreciate that you can come down to my level of thinking and experience. My camera is the older Power Shot G-2, 5 MP. I'm sure the new camera's have improvedbut this should suffiece till the experience level has increased.

I'm glad to see that the IP8500 might be a reasonable fit to my existing equipment.

Even with new inks and equipment coming out I don't necessarily need the lastest until I upgrade in the future.

Thanks to you guys there is something else to think about.



Bill


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