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Old Jun 28, 2005, 8:18 PM   #41
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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YOU SEE! He's a Pharmacist now!

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No, i'm not a Pharmacist, I just read the labels. Don't you have kids?

If you really must know... I've been in a number of auto accidents including ones with tow trucks and semis. My experence with over the counter medications comes from a combo concern over what to give kids so it doesn't kill them, and the fact that I have experenced a good deal of pain.


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Old Jun 28, 2005, 8:39 PM   #42
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:roll: Blah. Okay, he's right about everything! This guy must hold a CCNA and CCNP as well as worked for all three major printer manufactures - AS an engineer, all the while developing inks and owning a camera/photo shop so as to know and use every product out there as well as gain the experience and feedback from customers. Yep, he's correct about everything and everyone else on here is stupid. Maybe every marketing department in every type of business should go away and we should now start going to the pharmacy and not ask for Tylenol - that's BAD, it's a marketing thing, and ask for the drug by it's chemical name. So I guess everyone that creates a technology cannot name it, sorry for using the word FINE.
Hello McFly.... what the heck do Cisco certification programs have to do with printers? Next you'll be telling me you've got your MSCE and that that somehow qualifies you to speak about printers.

And what the heck... all three major printer manufacturers? Assuming I worked for I dunno... Xaar I would be some how less qualified? What about Mutoh? Just because the don't make their own printheads that "somehow" doesn't make them worth speaking about? What about Andgraph? So what if you can't smoke around them, you won't want to, trust me! I guess they are not "big" enough for you. Geepers they're bigger than me!

And all three? What is it with you with working at many places. Either your have no loyalty what so ever or you get fired every other day.

And what's sad is I know jack squat about commercial printers... the biggest thing I've owned is a design jet. Read this very carefully, "My professional printing needs are handled by print houses, just like anyone else interested in consumer a4 printers". Once more "My professional printing needs are handled by print houses, just like anyone else interested in consumer a4 printers". You seem to not grasp this concept... Let me try another way, "If I need huge copy... I ain't going to have room for the printer that makes it". But you know what... people who are interested in A4 and even A3 are not going to give a white pile of bat guano but printers that cost as much as cars. And you don't even have anything useful to say about them, other than they exist. Well great... more options under the sun than Canon... but in your infinite wisdom do you even know what they are? Have you used them. How do they compare?

Ah yes.... to win an argument and save face... shine the spot light on the other person. This isn't about me this is about you... you coming across as a spammer finding every thread that has otherwise legitimate technical questions... and your resolution is to buy a Canon. But I'll take the spotlight for a moment... I am wrong about a few things... I thought you were one of the paid army of Canon Spammers who have taken it upon them selves to make discussion boards and wiki mirrors of their marketing department. As it turns out you, since you tried to attach a label to me... your a retail salesman working for places like Best Buy. Ritz Camera, and others i'm too lazy to find. I'm not the one who decided to go around and start saying "their heads use the same process as semiconductors". You presumed start speaking to me in a condescending way about CD printing and say, "It's like paying a license fee to Macintosh for firewire on the PC". Hello McFly.... does intel have to pay a quarter? Do they? I don't know, I've never asked. This is about you wasting my time implying that you can get soft rip for the consumer printer.... and wow... I had no idea you could it for the a3 models.... you did something right by accident... but you did so in response to be critical about color accuracy.. a resolution that would cost $300 and isn't available on my printer.

Either you are a spammer paid for by canon or your just some retail salesman using this bulletin board as a vehicle. You know a heck of a lot about Canons, and you *could* if you wanted to be a tremendous help to them. But this is about you saying the answers to all your problems if you don't own a canon... is to buy a freaking canon. And you know... they don't do everything... I wish they did. But your total Canon bias and tunnel vision makes you absolutely useless in any dialog about comparative technologies.

You presume to speak about FINE technology, but you've said jack about it. You seem to think it's also a nice spiffy acronym used on their pro wide models... great... go look at one and see if it has a nice "FINE" label on it. I don't know if they do, I don't really care. But look at the dang concept digram I uploaded... not your marketing ones, the one with pretty little lablels the concept one. Look at it... Now compare it to piezo electric. Start by talking about how having a precise accurate drop size while requiring separate outlets compares to a more versatile variable drop size. When speaking about the number of nozzles include a freaking scale otherwise it's useless information. This would make an excellent thesis... one which I'd take the time to read.

Tell you what, go Photograph your neighbors pro printer... what was it a w9000 (you called it a i9900 earlier but using imagePROGRAFH inks). You got a Rebel... go photograph where it says fine..... I'm curious now. Your the first person who ever said their pro wides also use the slogan "FINE".
I fits on a desk - W is a desk
But this is about you employing the basic yankie salesman technique of making people feel stupid and forcing them to listen to you. While in America we are freaking rude creatures and this works... step out of the box once and a while and understand that there are people who know more than you do... a lot of them. And this condescending attitude we yanks share of the very thesis of rude. I am a human being with my own brain, my own eyes, and my own thoughts... each of which is no more or less valuable than someone else's. Actually better not think that way it might affect your numbers. I know, i'm a yank and I oops off people the world over, not because I try because I don't know any better. But the difference between you and I is I know this, I understand this... and I understand there are people on this forum who's experience outweighs mine by a thousand fold. Look at them. Shake off your superior attitude and Canon bias and look and learn. Be right, be wrong.. learn from your mistakes and successes equally.

What is so sick and sad is you have here a valuable tool to gain useful information for Canon... and heaven forbid... reasons people don't buy them. Someone like you collecting this information would be invaluable to Canon... and you don't have to leave home to do it. Rather than assuming they are the leaders of the imaging industry (hello Mc Fly... consumer printers) and must know what they are doing... actually find out what we think they are doing wrong... and let them decide if their right.
-------------------------

You totally wasted my time hunting around for soft rip on the Canons, and the funny thing is I don't think you even understand why this would be useful. You've probably seen only the marketing on Postscript. As a salesman... you'll find the following information invaluable to customers... many of who are buying into WinXp 64 which near as i'm aware (Please for the love of god correct me if i'm wrong – I want to be freaking wrong on this) Canon neither has xp-64 drivers nor places to make them. This issue affects XP-64 users as well as Linux or *nix users (I'm sure you've heard of SCO – SGI – Sun). Now the wonderful thing about Postscript above and beyond it's wide acceptance in graphics is the fact that it is.... it is a universal standard among printers. If Joe Blow computer user, the one you sold a copy of "Computers For Dummies" last week and wasn't insulted by it... as you what printers are guaranteed to work under xp-64... you can show him to the lasers. You can say in all honesty "This $500 laser while costing more than you want to spend will work with absolutely anything past present and future from a 20 year old computer to latest and greatest because it uses a standard that has been in use for longer than i've been alive". What you totally wasted my time on is the fact that soft rip for the consumer grade would mean that thousands of these printers won't have to be chucked out the window cause they don't work anymore.. while yes i'd have to keep a box and a dedicated OS in service to make it work.... that's better than a paperweight, which is what the consumer canons are becoming. And don't give me flack about "xp64 is for professionals"... xp64 is free till the end of july for anyone who has pro. But I hope you learned something to tell that customer who asks about "I won't want to be obsolete in a year" Oh but wait, you're probably more interested in people selling their printer at a garage sale (cough mp730) and buying a new one with the go faster stripes (cough mp780).

This isn't about me... this is about you. Some how taking it upon him self to promote not only Canon's paper, but their consumer and industrial printers, anything with a Canon label... yet work in a retail store unless I'm misunderstanding. Sure it's possible that some odd ball would rather deal with you and a fulfillment program than a real dealer who'd likely have a better price...but unless you've actually seen, touched or used one any information you have is going to be limited to what's on the box.

Is it your job to take any statement we have and flood us with stuff that's on some website? Is Canon paying you are are you doing this on your own. No one I've talked to has ever heard of you. The HP reps who take it upon them selves to hit discussion boards are so much cooler. Not only will they e-mail copy they printed them selves, but they will take the time to actually *troubleshoot* issues... and even take your data and try to reproduce the error and offer a *resolution*. Why don't you learn from the HP example as they try to dig them selves out of the Carlie pit shall we?

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Maybe every marketing department in every type of business should go away and we should now start going to the pharmacy and not ask for Tylenol - that's BAD, it's a marketing thing, and ask for the drug by it's chemical name. So I guess everyone that creates a technology cannot name it, sorry for using the word FINE.
Hey now... I do Aleive from time to time... over the counter version of Naproxen Sodium. Nice stuff - not as nice as Daypro - oxaprozin another nonsteroidal anti-inflamatary but not over the counter. I find the Daypro makes my ears ring, but the Naproxen Sodium while mild is an acceptable substute if you can't see a doctor. Toss up between that and Advil - Ibuprofin. Excedrin is nice... esp their migraine version, "acetaminophen acetylsalicylic acid caffeine", but even the regular stuff has caffeine in it. Many generics are pretty much just the acetylsalicylic acid... some others a mix of acetylsalicylic acid and caffeine. I prefer my acetylsalicylic (AKA ASA in canada) acid with caffeine personaly... but friends allergic might pick Bayer which I think has a caffeine free option. I forget what the brits call Tylenol.. Panthanol perhaps? Same stuff different label.

But anyways you should always skip past the marketing hype whether you looking for a Analgesic, Anti Inflammatory, Antipyretic, Antirheumatic, Antithrombotic, Myocardial infarction prophylactic, Myocardial reinfarction prophylactic, or a Platelet aggregation inhibitor. Should help you narrow down whether your in the market for ASAs or
Salicylates. But this is the point, skip past the hype, and look at what it does!





If you go look up the patents on MicroPiezo technology, you'll see that it was co-founded by Canon AND Epson. Canon abandoned it years ago because in their opinion, it has limitations. Canon's current technology for their print head manufacturing and ink ejection process is more precise to anyone else. An example would be output. Take any good macro shot and print it out on an HP8750 and then on the Canon ip600d. Put aside for a moment that the colors on both photos will come out somewhat different becuase of the paper and color profile used. The Canon will have a sharper appearance becuase of it's 2pl output and how Canon puts down "solid" colors by have twin (double) set of repeating colors across their printhead. Couple that with how, in each pass, from left to right, Canon's printhead lays down the necessary colors, lets say to make blue (yellow and green), in the SAME order from right to left and then left to right (again because of how the arrangement of nozzles are on the print head). Making sure that BOTH printers have completely good calibrated heads, this is why, often we see banding on HP photos and a "layering" effect. This link shows why and how:

http://www.canon.ca/digitalphotograp...d=86&tid=3

Well, I think that was free of any marketing slang. I probably won't get any praise on my assesment, but what the hell.
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Old Jun 28, 2005, 9:10 PM   #43
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If you go look up the patents on MicroPiezo technology, you'll see that it was co-founded by Canon AND Epson. Canon abandoned it years ago because in their opinion, it has limitations. Canon's current technology for their print head manufacturing and ink ejection process is more precise to anyone else. An example would be output. Take any good macro shot and print it out on an HP8750 and then on the Canon ip600d. Put aside for a moment that the colors on both photos will come out somewhat different becuase of the paper and color profile used. The Canon will have a sharper appearance becuase of it's 2pl output and how Canon puts down "solid" colors by have twin (double) set of repeating colors across their printhead. Couple that with how, in each pass, from left to right, Canon's printhead lays down the necessary colors, lets say to make blue (yellow and green), in the SAME order from right to left and then left to right (again because of how the arrangement of nozzles are on the print head). Making sure that BOTH printers have completely good calibrated heads, this is why, often we see banding on HP photos and a "layering" effect. This link shows why and how:

http://www.canon.ca/digitalphotograp...d=86&tid=3

Well, I think that was free of any marketing slang. I probably won't get any praise on my assesment, but what the heck.
Much better.

The basic core technology of piezo (piezein - to squeeze or press GK) is the very foundation of every day devices from ciggerette lighters to LCD screens. There are about 20 or so natural crystals that show this effect among which are quartz, sodium potassium tartrate tetrahydrate, and topaz. The peizo electric effect was first observed as early 18th century when it was observed that certain crystals generated electric charge when pressed (peizein) . It wasn't until much later it was discovered that the reverse was true and by placing a charge on crystals with piezo electric properties results in a converse. The fiirst known application of of this (that i'm aware) is sonar in WWI. Another useful application is for ceramaic phonograph cartrages. (memo to self... see if the stanard RIAA filter can be used with ceramic systems)

In the application of printerheads... the peizo is used to mechanicaly apply ink to paper, which has it's own advantages... you can varry the size of the drops rather than thermal technologies AKA bubble jets which are dependent the rate of expanation of a liquid though a given size hole. This can be observed on my concept diagram that shows the 1pl holes and the 5pl holes. Also.. piezo technology while having it's limitations is much more forgiving as far as the material you put through it, not being dependent on a liquids expantion ratio, one reason why they are prefered with solvent mediums as traditional bubble technology catches fire. But one huge drawback to peizos is their dentancy to clog or foul if left expsoed to air, which is why gasket placement is paramount when dealing with this technology. (Future observation: see how (ideal gas law) PV=nRT applies to thermal technologies.) Termal technoglies on the other hand can simply burn up as they generate their own heat to create bubbles.

In the case of a Canon vs even an epson r200, you can see where the preceise nature of the bubble jet doesn't help. This I feel isn't a limitation of their technology but rather the inks tendancy to wick. This can be observed on a macroscopic scale when printing white text with a background at 3pt text. But the reverse doesn't hold true as when printing text the output apears much crisper.


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Old Jun 28, 2005, 9:42 PM   #44
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This link shows why and how:
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http://www.canon.ca/digitalphotograp...d=86&tid=3

Well, I think that was free of any marketing slang. I probably won't get any praise on my assesment, but what the heck.
This link makes me laugh... not because it's not any good... it's actually a somewhat decent explanation of employing layout and direction in order to obtain consistancy. In fact... i'd have to hunt up my manual for my old panasonic 24pin color printer that had a chapter showing basicly the same thing. Or was it my Star... Needless to say this technique was employed on old dot matrix printers, even monochrome ones, in order to produce more superb typewriter quality (near letter quality) text.

Needless to say valid techquie... resolved the banding issue on old 9 pin and 24pin printers.. and if it worked on the macroscopic scale than microscopic should hold true.

But needless to say... Canon is repackaging old technology as new... in this case a good and simple technique that worked perfectly 20 years ago and should work just peachy today.
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Old Jun 28, 2005, 10:23 PM   #45
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zakezuke wrote:
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iS
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If you go look up the patents on MicroPiezo technology, you'll see that it was co-founded by Canon AND Epson. Canon abandoned it years ago because in their opinion, it has limitations. Canon's current technology for their print head manufacturing and ink ejection process is more precise to anyone else. An example would be output. Take any good macro shot and print it out on an HP8750 and then on the Canon ip600d. Put aside for a moment that the colors on both photos will come out somewhat different becuase of the paper and color profile used. The Canon will have a sharper appearance becuase of it's 2pl output and how Canon puts down "solid" colors by have twin (double) set of repeating colors across their printhead. Couple that with how, in each pass, from left to right, Canon's printhead lays down the necessary colors, lets say to make blue (yellow and green), in the SAME order from right to left and then left to right (again because of how the arrangement of nozzles are on the print head). Making sure that BOTH printers have completely good calibrated heads, this is why, often we see banding on HP photos and a "layering" effect. This link shows why and how:

http://www.canon.ca/digitalphotograp...d=86&tid=3

Well, I think that was free of any marketing slang. I probably won't get any praise on my assesment, but what the heck.
Much better.

The basic core technology of piezo (piezein - to squeeze or press GK) is the very foundation of every day devices from ciggerette lighters to LCD screens. There are about 20 or so natural crystals that show this effect among which are quartz, sodium potassium tartrate tetrahydrate, and topaz. The peizo electric effect was first observed as early 18th century when it was observed that certain crystals generated electric charge when pressed (peizein) . It wasn't until much later it was discovered that the reverse was true and by placing a charge on crystals with piezo electric properties results in a converse. The fiirst known application of of this (that i'm aware) is sonar in WWI. Another useful application is for ceramaic phonograph cartrages. (memo to self... see if the stanard RIAA filter can be used with ceramic systems)

In the application of printerheads... the peizo is used to mechanicaly apply ink to paper, which has it's own advantages... you can varry the size of the drops rather than thermal technologies AKA bubble jets which are dependent the rate of expanation of a liquid though a given size hole. This can be observed on my concept diagram that shows the 1pl holes and the 5pl holes. Also.. piezo technology while having it's limitations is much more forgiving as far as the material you put through it, not being dependent on a liquids expantion ratio, one reason why they are prefered with solvent mediums as traditional bubble technology catches fire. But one huge drawback to peizos is their dentancy to clog or foul if left expsoed to air, which is why gasket placement is paramount when dealing with this technology. (Future observation: see how (ideal gas law) PV=nRT applies to thermal technologies.) Termal technoglies on the other hand can simply burn up as they generate their own heat to create bubbles.

In the case of a Canon vs even an epson r200, you can see where the preceise nature of the bubble jet doesn't help. This I feel isn't a limitation of their technology but rather the inks tendancy to wick. This can be observed on a macroscopic scale when printing white text with a background at 3pt text. But the reverse doesn't hold true as when printing text the output apears much crisper.




:idea:Bubble Jet Technology - Core (Canon)

**This is how it has been explained to me

In order to obtain highly faithful image expression in inkjet output, it is essential that the ink dots be extremely small and precisely distributed. As ink droplets become microscopic, however, image quality is affected by such problems as uneven droplet size and placement on the paper. Conventional inkjet printers have compensated by employing a multiple-pass printing system, in which the print head unit makes several passes to print each line. However, this significantly adds to the printing time. Canon's CORE technology,now called "FINE"refers to a technology that combines (1) a proprietary ink-ejection mechanism as well as (2)aspecial ink nozzle manufacturing process. This process, as I will explain, is superior as it improves image quality, color gradation, and image reproduction. How? The actual size of ink droplets ejected from inkjet printer nozzles tends to vary depending on a number of factors. Image quality is not greatly affected when the ink droplets are relatively large. When microscopic ink droplets are used, however, such fluctuations have a fatal impact on image quality. On the other hand, the effects of air resistance, which can cause uneven ink dot placement on the paper, are increased as droplets become smaller.
In conventional inkjet processes, including Bubble Jet and piezoelectric processes, ink droplets are formed by applying pressure to ink inside the nozzle and, after repeated forward-and-return motion, separating a tiny volume of ink from the ink pressed out from the tip of the nozzle. Once ink droplets leave the nozzle, however, there are fluctuations in the discharge volume and direction depending on such factors as ink temperature and viscosity. In Canon's new proprietary ink-ejection mechanism, ink droplets are separated away and ejected using the bubbles formed at the tip of the nozzle.Canon hasmade the nozzle even smaller and attached a heater to its tip, so that the ink-ejection opening is positioned directly beneath the heater. Bubbles generated on the heater surface cause ink droplets to be thrust downward. Since all of the ink beneath the heater is ejected, the volume is determined by the displacement between the heater and the ink-ejection opening, guaranteeing precise uniformity in droplet size, unaffected even by changes in ink temperature. The only pressure necessary is that needed to push the ink from the nozzle, resulting in highly efficient transfer of the power developed when the bubble is generated and a dramatic increase in ink droplet speed: more than 1.5 times that of conventional mechanisms. In addition, ink is directed accurately without being affected by airflow caused by the movement of the print head.


** NO MARKETING JARGON HERE**


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Old Jun 28, 2005, 10:31 PM   #46
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:idea:Next... **STILL NO MARKETING JARGON** But I'll get spanked anyway, lol.

Print Head Manufacturing Process: (Canon vs. Conventional)

In the past, print heads in all inkjet printers were made by bonding components containing miniscule grooves and/or holes. Achieving smaller dots and higher printing speeds required high-precision technologies to enable the placement of a greater number of nozzles in larger areas. If the nozzle area of the print head ontheiP8500 inkjet printer were likened to that of half of a tennis court, the print head's 6,144 ink nozzles would each have a diameter of only 10 mm. What's more, the ink ejection opening on each nozzle would have to be sized and aligned with precision equaling 1 mm. However,
due to limitations in the processing precision of components and bonding precision with conventional manufacturing processes, it was not possible to align such a large number of nozzles uniformly and precisely. To do so, Canon combines a semiconductor production technology, original material technology and a unique processing technology. Canon's print head is produced by forming the heater and the nozzle on a wafer as a single unit (this is where I get the term, semi-conductor process). First, the heater and circuit pattern are formed on a silicon wafer. Special resin A, which Canon developed specially for nozzle formation, is then applied on the wafer. A pattern is made through exposure and development using semiconductor exposure equipment. On top of this pattern, resin B is applied to form a new layer. This layer is also exposed and developed, forming the ink ejection openings, and a special etching technique is used to create ink supply ports. Finally, when resin A is removed, the highly precise hollow nozzles are formed. This process enables nozzles to be made with high precision over a large surface area, using semiconductor- level precision without the need for bonding.


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Old Jun 28, 2005, 11:06 PM   #47
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Bah... I had to sift through marketing speak.

So basicly what you are saying is the technique employed by canon is essentally minor refinement of thermal bubble jet technology, rather than a straight path they opted for a right angle which shortens the shot length, which in turn is expelled with the conventional bubble jet system of heat. That about sum up what you said?

Hospitials also employ the same technique for delivering medication... by using the same effect... through drops through a tube that are a consistent size and can be used as a very accurate meter to control dosage.

Also, when you compair to peizo technology, are you taking into account the fact that since the peizo electric effect allows for controlled variable ink volume expulution it doesn't require a dedicated 5pl nozzle and a 1 or 2pl one?

Another question... how does the photo chemical process employed by canon differ from other forms of thermal bubble jet design.
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Old Jun 28, 2005, 11:59 PM   #48
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zakezuke wrote:
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Bah... I had to sift through marketing speak.

So basicly what you are saying is the technique employed by canon is essentally minor refinement of thermal bubble jet technology, rather than a straight path they opted for a right angle which shortens the shot length, which in turn is expelled with the conventional bubble jet system of heat. That about sum up what you said?

Hospitials also employ the same technique for delivering medication... by using the same effect... through drops through a tube that are a consistent size and can be used as a very accurate meter to control dosage.

Also, when you compair to peizo technology, are you taking into account the fact that since the peizo electric effect allows for controlled variable ink volume expulution it doesn't require a dedicated 5pl nozzle and a 1 or 2pl one?
:idea: To answer your last question first, I beleive (my opinion based on my understanding of Canon's print head and their ink ejection process) ,that having dedicated print nozzles allow for more precision (it's either onesize being ejected or the other, not having to rely on anozzlethatejectsa variable droplet). I would probably conclude that IF Epson would be able to use their piezo electric process ALONG WITH the exact mechanism (Canon's print head), by which the ink is expelled,then it may be just as accurate. The "right" angle and the exactplacement of the heater (as you referred to), is also purposely done - because of where the heater is and the shorterlengthof the area from which the ink is ejected, clogging is less likely to occur.Canon's ink-ejection process heats and vaporizes the ink inside the nozzle to form microbubbles, in an ideal position closer to the nozzle outlet. Under the pressure of these bubbles, ink is ejected out of the outlet in microfine droplets. The nozzle is designed to limit the amount of ink to the space between the heater and the outlet so when bubbles form, all the ink under the heater is forced outwards and not even temperature variations can affect the droplet size. Pressure only needs to be applied to the discharged ink, a task that is efficiently carried out by microbubbles. The result is accurate discharge to the printed surface with almost no air resistance.I know to what you're referring to when you say or ask about, 2 and 5pl sets of nozzles. Canon's ip3, 4, 5 and6000d have this. The 2 pl drop on these models is (I believe) for detail, and the 5pl is used for "coverage" meaning that when one area, like on a photo for example is one color, 2pl is not needed, 5plissufficient. The i950, i960, ip8500 and i9900 have ONLY 2pl nozzles. TheS900 and S9000used/had only4pl nozzles. The ip5000 has a brand new print head all together (just got a spare delievered to me), and it is1 and 5pl nozzles) again, 1pl for detail and 5 for coverage and this is the only one now to achieve 9600x2400 dpi. (this is exciting because spare print heads from Canon say on the box what models they are compatible with, and usually, a specific print head fits many models), but this one for the ip5000 is totally new and not in any other model. I had a hard time getting one (especiallyfor free), and technical support didn't want to send it out They said that basically, this new head is "indestructible" - their words. Just a hint, I have a "feeling" that all ofthis falls new models* will be based off of this new print head. That will be exciting- at least to me.
On your last question,about thechemical process and the differences between Canon and other thermal processes;this is a great question. Not being the engineer, I am not sure. I will write this question down for future reference. BTW, do you need any ink? I'll give ya a great discount! And if you let me e-mail you privately, I'll let you in on a little Canon secret for this fall.

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Old Jun 29, 2005, 1:23 AM   #49
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BTW, do you need any ink? I'll give ya a great discount!
Thanks but no. My present ink is comming from MIS, had great luck with it in the past and am going to try it on the Canon. And frankly canon does not presently a4 archival nor an option for a multi black. In the future if I get back into B&W.. i'd likely go with the i960 and hex-black. Near as i'm aware B&W lithography isn't a default option.

Also no double sized matte... but I'd likely be happy with the illford offering.

Quote:
On your last question, about the chemical process and the differences between Canon and other thermal processes; this is a great question. Not being the engineer, I am not sure. I will write this question down for future reference.
You see, this is an important piece of information. We've finally established that the core of the FINE technology (which is why I was doubting they used that term on the pro wides but honestly didn't know) is a thermal bubble jet with some refinements. Without any context other thermal technologies it's hard to compair them and make a valued judgement.

This is why I was critical of the use of the term CMOS which stands for Complex Metal Oxide Semiconducor. I'd have to double check the book definition (when does a MOS become a CMOS) but what you showed, while it doesn't show a schematic of the chamber design looks very simplisic enough to be covered in a matrix rather than having to do with MOS gates.

A good project would be to compair this FINE with others in the same class, other thermal based inkjet systems. Show the improvements. write a thesis.


Quote:
To answer your last question first, I beleive (my opinion based on my understanding of Canon's print head and their ink ejection process) ,that having dedicated print nozzles allow for more precision (it's either one size being ejected or the other, not having to rely on a nozzle that ejects a variable droplet). I would probably conclude that IF Epson would be able to use their piezo electric process ALONG WITH the exact mechanism (Canon's print head), by which the ink is expelled, then it may be just as accurate. The "right" angle and the exact placement of the heater (as you referred to), is also purposely done - because of where the heater is and the shorter length of the area from which the ink is ejected, clogging is less likely to occur. I know to what you're referring to when you say or ask about, 2 and 5pl sets of nozzles
.
Ah.. I think we are misunderstanding the piezo electric effect. It's mechanical, just like an LCD screen, electrisity causes crystals to change size... which is why I speak of this as being variable, which would require less nozzles because the same ones can deliver different size charge. It's designed to be variable... rather than a fixed pre-determined delivery. For example... Canon could accomplish the same task with two sets of nozzles (1 or 2pl and 5pl) and using a piezo electric variable apature not only accomplish cut the size of their heads but allow for controlled but metered size drops wether going with piezo or thermal delivery. (note this is prior art and can't be patented)

Now another question, since we've established this is thermal technology(refined thermal bubble jet) ... how does this affect the medium used? For example Andgraph uses piezo, they are solvent based so use of thermal would cause them to catch fire. Not good.

How did canon resolve the issue of the heater affecting the chemistry of the pigments?

Also, since FINE is a thermal system, what does Canon do to prevent burnout that is inharent by any design that uses heat as part of it's delivery system. Basic thermocouple feedback system? I don't know the service manual doesn't provide good schematics, but this would explain much when I've heard complaints about the printhead live being variable.... short for some... long for others.






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Old Jun 29, 2005, 1:39 AM   #50
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zakezuke wrote:
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BTW, do you need any ink? I'll give ya a great discount!
Thanks but no. My present ink is comming from MIS, had great luck with it in the past and am going to try it on the Canon. And frankly canon does not presently a4 archival nor an option for a multi black. In the future if I get back into B&W.. i'd likely go with the i960 and hex-black. Near as i'm aware B&W lithography isn't a default option.

Also no double sized matte... but I'd likely be happy with the illford offering.

Quote:
On your last question, about the chemical process and the differences between Canon and other thermal processes; this is a great question. Not being the engineer, I am not sure. I will write this question down for future reference.
You see, this is an important piece of information. We've finally established that the core of the FINE technology (which is why I was doubting they used that term on the pro wides but honestly didn't know) is a thermal bubble jet with some refinements. Without any context other thermal technologies it's hard to compair them and make a valued judgement.

This is why I was critical of the use of the term CMOS which stands for Complex Metal Oxide Semiconducor. I'd have to double check the book definition (when does a MOS become a CMOS) but what you showed, while it doesn't show a schematic of the chamber design looks very simplisic enough to be covered in a matrix rather than having to do with MOS gates.

A good project would be to compair this FINE with others in the same class, other thermal based inkjet systems. Show the improvements. write a thesis.


Quote:
To answer your last question first, I beleive (my opinion based on my understanding of Canon's print head and their ink ejection process) ,that having dedicated print nozzles allow for more precision (it's either one size being ejected or the other, not having to rely on a nozzle that ejects a variable droplet). I would probably conclude that IF Epson would be able to use their piezo electric process ALONG WITH the exact mechanism (Canon's print head), by which the ink is expelled, then it may be just as accurate. The "right" angle and the exact placement of the heater (as you referred to), is also purposely done - because of where the heater is and the shorter length of the area from which the ink is ejected, clogging is less likely to occur. I know to what you're referring to when you say or ask about, 2 and 5pl sets of nozzles
.
Ah.. I think we are misunderstanding the piezo electric effect. It's mechanical, just like an LCD screen, electrisity causes crystals to change size... which is why I speak of this as being variable, which would require less nozzles because the same ones can deliver different size charge. It's designed to be variable... rather than a fixed pre-determined delivery. For example... Canon could accomplish the same task with two sets of nozzles (1 or 2pl and 5pl) and using a piezo electric variable apature not only accomplish cut the size of their heads but allow for controlled but metered size drops wether going with piezo or thermal delivery. (note this is prior art and can't be patented)

Now another question, since we've established this is thermal technology(refined thermal bubble jet) ... how does this affect the medium used? For example Andgraph uses piezo, they are solvent based so use of thermal would cause them to catch fire. Not good.

How did canon resolve the issue of the heater affecting the chemistry of the pigments?

Also, since FINE is a thermal system, what does Canon do to prevent burnout that is inharent by any design that uses heat as part of it's delivery system. Basic thermocouple feedback system? I don't know the service manual doesn't provide good schematics, but this would explain much when I've heard complaints about the printhead live being variable.... short for some... long for others.






:blah:Instead of giving away free printers and having consumer based contests for ink and paper, Canon needs to have a drawing with the grand prize being a trip, directly to Canon and an all out meeting with the engineers. This was you can ask all your questions, at nausium and I'll rig the drawing so your name gets picked! Somehow I think even visiting Canon's R&D department and talking with the engineers (IN JAPAN), wouldn't settle anything or satisy, lol.
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