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Old Jul 1, 2005, 1:44 AM   #81
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BTW, I do understand your POINT and you made a good one; However, do you have any statistical data on what the demand is in the US for the support of windows 64 and Canon printers? Or the demand for Win64 bit and ANY printer manufacturer?

I KNOW this does NOT matter, but Canon HAS in fact already made it's current products COMPATIBLE with APPLE's latest OS X v.10.4- (TIGER)!. But that'snot a big deal huh?

Hey that's something to be proud of. I may not own a Mac(worth speaking about ) but everyone I know who's seriously into Photoshop has one (or two). And the linux support even though you might not respect that market segment exists as well.. it's not great but it's there... that is also something to be proud of. Odd that Linux is supported (somewhat) and xp64 is.

I'm being hard on you because in the event you are actually working for canon, or have any legit contacts there you can report back and say, "Hey guys... You know in finland people are getting the acer 1524wlmi with xp-64 pre-loaded? A $1400.00 euro notebook... and you know what they are doing with our printers, our printers that don't work.... about time we get our arses in gear 'eh"".
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Old Jul 1, 2005, 1:57 AM   #82
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:blah:zakezuke wrote:
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i
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BTW, I do understand your POINT and you made a good one; However, do you have any statistical data on what the demand is in the US for the support of windows 64 and Canon printers? Or the demand for Win64 bit and ANY printer manufacturer?

I KNOW this does NOT matter, but Canon HAS in fact already made it's current products COMPATIBLE with APPLE's latest OS X v.10.4- (TIGER)!. But that'snot a big deal huh?

Hey that's something to be proud of. I may not own a Mac(worth speaking about ) but everyone I know who's seriously into Photoshop has one (or two). And the linux support even though you might not respect that market segment exists as well.. it's not great but it's there... that is also something to be proud of. Odd that Linux is supported (somewhat) and xp64 is.

I'm being hard on you because in the event you are actually working for canon, or have any legit contacts there you can report back and say, "Hey guys... You know in finland people are getting the acer 1524wlmi with xp-64 pre-loaded? A $1400.00 euro notebook... and you know what they are doing with our printers, our printers that don't work.... about time we get our arses in gear 'eh"".
:blah: YEA I CAN REPORT BACK!! I can do that much for ya! No problem! BTW, would you like a job there too? From what I've read in the past two weeks, you could make this company perfect, LOL. I would bet my next paycheck that if Canon had answers and resolutions to everything you talk about, they would plow the hell over HP and Epson and REALLY BE THE ONLY gig in town! LOL


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Old Jul 1, 2005, 2:04 AM   #83
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Hello; I would like to thank the two of you for the rsponses which were educational and several levels above me.

I should have mentioned that I have a Canon 5 MP camera and a Epson text printer. I would like to get a photo printer that would give a good print so that I may acquire the discerning eye that you have.

It seems that the Canon IP8500 would be a reasonable choice at this time in the learning experience??

Of the photo's that you posted I lean towards the upper right photo 6 ink, although my eyes are not what they used to be. It will be interesting to see your post in that regards.
Actually i'm quite color blind... I'm totally dependent on using red and green gels to make valued color judgements, or looking at my glasses and seeing the prisum effect. Discering eye? I bought a pair of green seude shoes thinking they were a nice tasteful match to my grey suit. I have never seen pink in my life and violets do look rather blue, and my grass is just the perfect shade of orange after a good rain.

But what Epson? Some of those Dura ink based epsons are very spiffy if costing a tad more per page.

But I would lean tward either the i960 even though vivid in my eyes looks like they slapped a bunch of red everywhere and added too much yellow to red shades. For some reason the general population likes vivid. It's so cheap and the same basic thing as the ip6000 save the refinements in the case and paper handling and fancy LCD screen. The light inks do help to produce a beautiful smooth sky and mellows out facial features to look less, well, dotty. You'll be spending extra on those inks. The price mark from tigerdirect.com is so low.... $70 referb or $80 non. $20 shipping there and abouts. About the cost of the ink +$3.00 each one. *edit the $80 one is a rebate deal... the reberb is $70 or $80 with paper i never heard of before.

If not that than and ip4000 or an ip5000. To me the classic 4 color is less warm than the 4+2 and 6+2 versions. Plus text printing is cheaper on the Canon if you wanted a multi purpose printer. Color fine tuning if nessicary can be adjusted with some people by other people... i'm still in the cursing stage.

Spending $300 on the ip8500 doesn't seem wise esp since as someone pointed out canon is comming out with new inks that might technicaly require a new head. And it's my belief that more color refinement is needed on the current 6+2 color printers, unless i'm wearing my photo greys.


"If not that than and ip4000 or an ip5000. To me the classic 4 color is less warm than the 4+2 and 6+2 versions. Plus text printing is cheaper on the Canon if you wanted a multi purpose printer. Color fine tuning if nessicary can be adjusted with some people by other people... i'm still in the cursing stage."


Text Printing IS Cheaper on the Canon. Epson is somewhat falling behind because when you look at their ALL in one models and their multi-puporpose, single function printers, they have three colors and a black, Canon has, on the ip4000, 5000, MP750, 760 and 780 - three colors, photo black and the BIG BCI-3 Pigment Black. PC Magazine Rated the MP780 winning out against the HP7410 MFP (The $500 one), AND against the Epson 620 MFP, on cost for text printing, speed, photo quality, and features (such as built in duplex (auto 2 sided printing). Anyways, the BCI-3 Pigment Black at 27ml for about $14 retail was rated at a PENNY a page in this PC Magazine test! And color, non photographic printing was rated at 2.6 cents a page! NOT bad..for an inkjet!


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Old Jul 1, 2005, 3:17 PM   #84
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:blah: YEA I CAN REPORT BACK!! I can do that much for ya! No problem! BTW, would you like a job there too? From what I've read in the past two weeks, you could make this company perfect, LOL. I would bet my next paycheck that if Canon had answers and resolutions to everything you talk about, they would plow the heck over HP and Epson and REALLY BE THE ONLY gig in town! LOL
I could always used good contact info, I might be looking for a new venue come January.

Only one problem... I'm not all that hip to the present policies that Canon is doing. If you are working for canon and if your job is to indeed hit the fourms on their behalf... i'd make sure that every reads the discussion board faq on faqs.org on spam. And some places are complaining that wiki and such are becomming mirrors of the canon website. While i'm old school in my beliefs I do see some benifit of having an offical representive of venders, distributers, and manufacturers. Freeish advertising, and good PR.

Also, I and sales don't mix. I'm far too honest. I remember way back when dish networks were new and the sales people were trying to the benifits of buying a newer box (the 32bit one) vs the old (16 bit one). I looked inside the vent holes and explained, "ah yes.. this one is using a motorola 68000... releases circa 1979. first generation Macintoshes used this, this one over here uses a 68020.... second generation macintoshes used this". I got funny looks.
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Old Jul 1, 2005, 3:47 PM   #85
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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Text Printing IS Cheaper on the Canon. Epson is somewhat falling behind because when you look at their ALL in one models and their multi-puporpose, single function printers, they have three colors and a black, Canon has, on the ip4000, 5000, MP750, 760 and 780 - three colors, photo black and the BIG BCI-3 Pigment Black. PC Magazine Rated the MP780 winning out against the HP7410 MFP (The $500 one), AND against the Epson 620 MFP, on cost for text printing, speed, photo quality, and features (such as built in duplex (auto 2 sided printing). Anyways, the BCI-3 Pigment Black at 27ml for about $14 retail was rated at a PENNY a page in this PC Magazine test! And color, non photographic printing was rated at 2.6 cents a page! NOT bad..for an inkjet!

This is somewhat fair comment, though i'm not sure i'd describe color printing as 2.6c/page. Let me check the math. The canon rates the bci-6 inks as being 280p each, which given the 25ml bci-3e black is rated at 500p this number is easy enough to believe. The going rate is $12.00 (msrp is close to this) at office depot. I'd say... based on these numbers that the color cost per page at 5% yield is 4.29c/page. This is good... in fact it's great.

I'd like to know where PC Magazine quoted these numbers, so I can yell at them.

One thing I am curious about... actually being an MP owner my self is the lack of fax support on models that don't sport onboard fax modems (mp760 vs mp780). In my case, it wasn't that I was too cheap to not buy a fax modem edition, but rather going mp760 because of the twist screen and 35mm transparancy adapter. But normally when an AIO doesn't include a fax modem it includes either PC modem support directly, or permits printing to the FAX device. But alas the MP navigator doesn't list "print to fax" as an option, and in fact when when printing multiable copies... it uses "photo print" as an engine which doesn't permit printing to any printer that isn't a Canon including the Microsoft Fax device. Seems rather odd that I have to use scan engine... save as a PDF (for example) and print from a third party application when even the likes of Lexmark who offer AIOs without onboard modems support your dang modem.



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Old Jul 1, 2005, 6:13 PM   #86
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zakezuke wrote:
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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Text Printing IS Cheaper on the Canon. Epson is somewhat falling behind because when you look at their ALL in one models and their multi-puporpose, single function printers, they have three colors and a black, Canon has, on the ip4000, 5000, MP750, 760 and 780 - three colors, photo black and the BIG BCI-3 Pigment Black. PC Magazine Rated the MP780 winning out against the HP7410 MFP (The $500 one), AND against the Epson 620 MFP, on cost for text printing, speed, photo quality, and features (such as built in duplex (auto 2 sided printing). Anyways, the BCI-3 Pigment Black at 27ml for about $14 retail was rated at a PENNY a page in this PC Magazine test! And color, non photographic printing was rated at 2.6 cents a page! NOT bad..for an inkjet!

This is somewhat fair comment, though i'm not sure i'd describe color printing as 2.6c/page. Let me check the math. The canon rates the bci-6 inks as being 280p each, which given the 25ml bci-3e black is rated at 500p this number is easy enough to believe. The going rate is $12.00 (msrp is close to this) at office depot. I'd say... based on these numbers that the color cost per page at 5% yield is 4.29c/page. This is good... in fact it's great.

I'd like to know where PC Magazine quoted these numbers, so I can yell at them.

One thing I am curious about... actually being an MP owner my self is the lack of fax support on models that don't sport onboard fax modems (mp760 vs mp780). In my case, it wasn't that I was too cheap to not buy a fax modem edition, but rather going mp760 because of the twist screen and 35mm transparancy adapter. But normally when an AIO doesn't include a fax modem it includes either PC modem support directly, or permits printing to the FAX device. But alas the MP navigator doesn't list "print to fax" as an option, and in fact when when printing multiable copies... it uses "photo print" as an engine which doesn't permit printing to any printer that isn't a Canon including the Microsoft Fax device. Seems rather odd that I have to use scan engine... save as a PDF (for example) and print from a third party application when even the likes of Lexmark who offer AIOs without onboard modems support your dang modem.


These figures were not mine, they were from CNET on the MP750, 760/780: I misquoted, they rated the color, non photo printing even lower than what I said. That sounds better.

http://reviews.cnet.com/Canon_Pixma_...4.html?tag=top

"The large black ink tank costs $13.95; the four smaller cartridges are $11.95 each; it costs $61.75 to replace the set. Estimates arethat the large black tank will last for 1,500 pages of text, nearly a penny per page of excellent inkjet value. We roughly estimate that nonphotographic color prints would run about 2 cents per page, low for an inkjet".

WOW! :| <==== Grabs his 20D to take a snapshot!
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Old Jul 1, 2005, 8:58 PM   #87
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These figures were not mine, they were from CNET on the MP750, 760/780: I misquoted, they rated the color, non photo printing even lower than what I said. That sounds better.

http://reviews.cnet.com/Canon_Pixma_...4.html?tag=top

"The large black ink tank costs $13.95; the four smaller cartridges are $11.95 each; it costs $61.75 to replace the set. Estimates arethat the large black tank will last for 1,500 pages of text, nearly a penny per page of excellent inkjet value. We roughly estimate that nonphotographic color prints would run about 2 cents per page, low for an inkjet".
Thanks... i'll be in contact with them to see how they reached that number. I suspect they are talking about the ISO JIS-SCID test which if i'm not mistaken is 1500 characters courier 10 cpi.. which is well 1/4 page of typewriter style text, taking margins into account about 1/3 {estimate). {do correct me if i'm wrong}

[Full page: 80 characters per line * 66 lines = 5280 chars
Margins: 70chars/line * 60 lines = 4200] {in case i'm wrong this is where my estimate is comming from}

Using the same test the b3e-bk would print on about 1500 pages, where 5% yield is 500 pages according to Canon. Smart guys, some other unnammed companies got sued for this publishing JIS-SCID yields as reality.

If you're going to quote page yield on the canon or other printer, i'd reccomend you stick with their numbers based on 5% yield... these numbers are pretty good and these are, near as i'm aware what canon publishes. Just multiply the c-net numbers by 3 and it's still pretty good. The numbers Cnet are quoting are based on 1/3 a page of typewriter text... not even a true type font like tahoma / new times roman / arial which are well fater than courier (old).

For future reference, don't quote any specs from c-net or PC-mag. Most offen they are either backwards, wrong, or out of any form of context they are meaningless. They are rags for the masses and while I would refer to them for average user reviews any technical specifications should be taken with a grain of salt.

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Old Jul 2, 2005, 5:07 AM   #88
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BTW, I do understand your POINT and you made a good one; However, do you have any statistical data on what the demand is in the US for the support of windows 64 and Canon printers? Or the demand for Win64 bit and ANY printer manufacturer? NOT an excuse, but you're ONE out of a million that's asking for it!
But respectfully you shouldn't need stats... intel and amd are all going 64bit.... these you can buy in any retail shop. xp pro 64 is just the first step.. which does exist and is being shipped. This isn't some flash in the pan but a preview of what the consumer OS will need in under a year.

Anyone with any common sence when buying a PC or peripheral today needs to ask if it'll work with 64bit OSes less they run the risk of not working with the current and next generation microsoft operating systems.
HP at the very least has a mailing list to this end, many epsons are already supported out of the box and should already have drivers for their consumer line. Canon's offical line is "it's for professionals so we're not going to do it".

But if you want the stats... and you do actually work for canon, provide me with contact info. I'll forward it on to the approperate parties. Let them do the work. Canon e-mail address would be most spiffy, otherwise I doubt they'd take the time.

Needless to say they have not released a quarterly report yet.... but there are enough angry off people there that be more than happy to relay the current numbers.
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