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Old Jun 5, 2005, 5:38 PM   #1
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New to digital photo and want a new printer. Looking at Epson R-800 and H.P. 8450

HP uses a new head on each replacement of a cartridge so clogging woundn't seem to be a problem. Ease of use of the HP ??

Epson has been good to me on other applications but with a photo printer is clogging a problem? Over the long haul I guess the cost of cartridges will be the determining factor along with quality and life span of the printer.

If one does not use it day in and day out what would be the better choice.


Thanks for the help.

Bill
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Old Jun 5, 2005, 10:38 PM   #2
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Hey Bill I once found my self asking the same question three months ago and after extensive reaserch came to the conclusion that I like theMustang 5.0 gt over the camaro. Now there both fastmuscle cars.They both havestrong and weak points. Every one wants the best. The best is what you like. Now you did not mention what type of printing you will be doing. Bottom line with all the new technology in electronicsyou canleave it to a toss of a coin.Im sure your get diiferent opinions but they both are good overall printers.

My 2 cents,

Kevin
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Old Jun 6, 2005, 5:02 PM   #3
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Kevin;

Thanks for the response. I guess I'm doing the analysis

by paralyisis. I will flip the coin and proceed. Epson lost.

I think I'll try the HP as I've noticed the current Epson

has streeks on full color print outs but fine on text.



thanks for the input.

Bill
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Old Jun 22, 2005, 1:01 AM   #4
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I'm suprised that since Canon is the leader is digital imaging, having the best digital cameras on the market and leading the market share in camera's that you haven't looked at their outstanding line of photo printers. Canon uses a removable life time print head, made from a Canon proprietary semi conductor process, it can produce ink droplets of 2 pico litre size, at 4800x2400dpi. I have two, the Canon ip5000 and wide format Canon i9900 with their 8 individual ink set. This produces colors even better than devoping positive film in a dark room!!! My prints are fast! a 4"x6" takes 21 seconds and is dry! unlike the HP. Prints from the HP can come out curled on their premium paper and wet! Also, starting on a full set of Canon inks I got right at 200 4"x6" prints before just ONE ink cartridge ran out! With HP you are spending around $35 dollars just because one runs out, and the idea with their print head being new when you buy a cartridge, it's a cheaply make head since it's "disposable" anyway. The Canon removable print head can be cleaned if necessary and can produce droplets at 1/4800" pitch! In the last 4-5 years Canon has been number one in almost every news worthy resource from PC Magazine to Cnet to Consumber Reports! If you haven't seen a Canon print or try one out, you're really missing out here! There's a reson HP has lost 22% of the worlds market share in the last 3 years!
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Old Jun 22, 2005, 11:01 AM   #5
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Hello;

\I appreciate the response and have been lead in the right directio by another party and Canon is at the top of the list.

I was told to check the Canon I960 and also looking at the Pixma 6000D and Pixma 8500.

I understand the Pixma series is the latest upgrade of the I 960 .

Not sure if I need the 8 vs 6 cartridges.



Thanks for the education.

Bill
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Old Jun 22, 2005, 3:18 PM   #6
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356frog wrote:
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I appreciate the response and have been lead in the right directio by another party and Canon is at the top of the list.

I was told to check the Canon I960 and also looking at the Pixma 6000D and Pixma 8500.

I understand the Pixma series is the latest upgrade of the I 960 .

Not sure if I need the 8 vs 6 cartridges.
I would strongly disagree about the canons looking better than prints made in the darkroom. I'm all for digital photography but it's young, and I have yet to find a consistant profile that's spot on with a negative with Canon, and I have Canons. I guess this depends how one defines better.

Canon gets more confusing because not only do you have your choice between 6 and 8 carts, but the 6 and 8 cart printers don't include the pigmented black very useful for text printing. Not only that but you have the ip5000 with 1pl drop size but only 5 carts. It's easy enough for a person to say I want a document printer, a general purpose printer, or a photo printer which would narrow this down a tad. If CD printing wasn't an issue I'd pickup a i960 today as they were under $100 at tigerdirect. No fancy features like duplex or onscreen display but hey photo output is nice and the cost is only $30 more than a refill (OEM ink, yea well).

And you have the Epsons which while I have had issues them them out of the box the prints are a closer match to a good photograph.

Toms hardware, while I don't always agree with their assesment took the time to actually scan in the output of each printer. Unfortunatly i'm not aware of any other site that shows a common scan as a reference. See for your self, though for some reason the ip8500 image isn't displaying in big mode.

-Epson r800 -HP 8450 - Canon ip8500
http://www.tomshardware.com/consumer...inters-05.html
-Canon ip2000 ip4000 ip5000 -lexmark z816 -hp 7450 / 8150 - Epson c66 / r300
http://www.tomshardware.com/consumer...rinter-08.html



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Old Jun 22, 2005, 3:28 PM   #7
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:? Epson printers have more confusing ink sets than any other printer vendor out there. They can't agree on one consistent ink set for the best printing overall. Their wide format and 8.5"x11" printers don'teven use the same ink set. The reason for (and I work for Canon retail sales in the US), is that the IP3, 4 and 5000 is to give the customer the ability to have an all purpose machine (with the large pigment black for text), and overall decent quality photos. If someone wants a dedicated photo printer and already owns a machine for text, lets says a laser perhaps, then they can purchase the ip6000d or go for the 8 color ip8500 or wide format i9900. Canon uses one basic ink set and just expands the range of cartridges in their models (all BCI-6). So basic printing and decent photos - IP4000/5000, for photo's - dummy proof printer with a screen - ip6000d, professional would be ip8500 and i9900 for wide format. The reason the ip5000 has 1 pico litre droplet and such a high dpi (9600x2400), is that this machine is a hybrid - ALL of the Canon's will go to one pico litre this fall tauting 9600x2400 dpi, with duplex printing included!
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Old Jun 22, 2005, 4:42 PM   #8
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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:? Epson printers have more confusing ink sets than any other printer vendor out there. They can't agree on one consistent ink set for the best printing overall. Their wide format and 8.5"x11" printers don'teven use the same ink set. The reason for (and I work for Canon retail sales in the US), is that the IP3, 4 and 5000 is to give the customer the ability to have an all purpose machine (with the large pigment black for text), and overall decent quality photos. If someone wants a dedicated photo printer and already owns a machine for text, lets says a laser perhaps, then they can purchase the ip6000d or go for the 8 color ip8500 or wide format i9900. Canon uses one basic ink set and just expands the range of cartridges in their models (all BCI-6). So basic printing and decent photos - IP4000/5000, for photo's - dummy proof printer with a screen - ip6000d, professional would be ip8500 and i9900 for wide format. The reason the ip5000 has 1 pico litre droplet and such a high dpi (9600x2400), is that this machine is a hybrid - ALL of the Canon's will go to one pico litre this fall tauting 9600x2400 dpi, with duplex printing included!
Indeed I couldn't have said it better my self. Epson offers more choices, where Canon follows the one ink fits all system. You got your UltraChrome, your Dura, and the dye inks where Canon has their BCI-3e upgraded to BCI-6 soon to be upgraded to BCI-7. This was the bigest reason I didn't pick Canon sooner. In fact, if it wasn't for the aftermarket inks I would never have bought a Canon at all. But canon isn't without confusion on the consumer grade models, after all you have your bci-24 series which franky I can't tell from a bci-21 series.

But I am somewhat confused by your use of the word wideformat. If you're talking A3 or even A3+/super B printer I'd hardly call those wide format. After all they are no more wide than paper is long. It would be very bad to put 15ml carts in a wide format printer i.e. A2 and above. At 4 times the area of A4 you'd be lucky to not run out of ink in a few hours. But needless to say the r800/r1800/r2400 take the same series of UltraChrome inks, just more of them for the r2400 and no gloss optimizer IIRC. I.e. they are using the same inks for the a4 printer as the a3+ printer. Canon wide format IIRC uses the BCI-1201, BCI-1401/1411/1421/1431 just to name a few in the 300ml+ class.

But all accidemic and very unhelpful for a person considering an A4/letter printer, esp since their question is do they need 6 color or 8 color.






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Old Jun 22, 2005, 5:20 PM   #9
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Sorry. Pardon the expression, wide-format. Canon's wording in their literature says large-format for their i9900 and large-format for the commericial series printers (image Prograf W6400 and W8400). Their BCI-6 series inks have a higher light density in them than any other commercially available dye ink, which gives off such a vibrance of color. In a technical document I just read, pigment based inks have more of a tendancy to clog up print nozzles and so this is possible why Canon has stayed away from pigment inks in the consumer line. This makes sense since I read so many complaints from Epson users about the heads clogging and rendering the printer unusable. Using the Canon BCI-6 ink, which do not have a computer chip on them, like HP and Epson, yeilds to move, over 200 4"x6" prints before one cartridge runs out, and starting with a complete set, had yeilded approximately 21 borderless, 6MP, 13"x19" inch prints before one cartridge ran out. Also, in cleaning, purging or aligning the print head, Canon provides more control now over this as you can select which colors you want to clean. Canon's print head (being one inch long), is unlike Epsons Piezo Electric technology is that it's print head is made from a semi conductor process similiar to how Intel stampls out processor chips. This one piece wafer, can now create droplets down to consistent 1 pico litre droplets, and at 1/4800th of a pitch, can do so at 4800x2400 dpi, which is far higher with the smallest droplet of ink layed down than any other printer vendor in the world. As well, no one can match Canon's speed by having over 6144 print nozzles in the head. The borderless 13"x19" print finishes dry in about 3.5 minutes. For the people that demand pigment ink, the commercial Canon machines offer a pigment set of ink, both based on the same type of print head with the same technology built in.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"In choosing weather or not to purchase a six color machine or 8 color, one needs to decide based on what camera they have. It's no secret that agian, Canon has the best digital SLR camera's made in the world. Each year at the PMA in Germany, and arond the world their digital and film cameras come out on top. If someone is just starting out, I would get a i960 or 6000d, if they need text and want decent photo's, I would get a ip4 or 5000. If they have a pro-sumer highend camera or have 5MP or above and are real serious, they should get the ip8500 unless they would like to print wide format. Whoops, I mean large-format. -End

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"BTW, the BCI-24 and 21 series ink has the same formula as BCI-3 and would render the quality the same quality. Not bad for low end machines. The BCI-16 in the ip90 portable has now the same ink formula as the BCI-6.
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Old Jun 22, 2005, 7:02 PM   #10
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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Sorry. Pardon the expression, wide-format. Canon's wording in their literature says large-format for their i9900 and large-format for the commericial series printers (image Prograf W6400 and W8400). Their BCI-6 series inks have a higher light density in them than any other commercially available dye ink, which gives off such a vibrance of color. In a technical document I just read, pigment based inks have more of a tendancy to clog up print nozzles and so this is possible why Canon has stayed away from pigment inks in the consumer line. This makes sense since I read so many complaints from Epson users about the heads clogging and rendering the printer unusable. Using the Canon BCI-6 ink, which do not have a computer chip on them, like HP and Epson, yeilds to move, over 200 4"x6" prints before one cartridge runs out, and starting with a complete set, had yeilded approximately 21 borderless, 6MP, 13"x19" inch prints before one cartridge ran out. Also, in cleaning, purging or aligning the print head, Canon provides more control now over this as you can select which colors you want to clean. Canon's print head (being one inch long), is unlike Epsons Piezo Electric technology is that it's print head is made from a semi conductor process similiar to how Intel stampls out processor chips. This one piece wafer, can now create droplets down to consistent 1 pico litre droplets, and at 1/4800th of a pitch, can do so at 4800x2400 dpi, which is far higher with the smallest droplet of ink layed down than any other printer vendor in the world. As well, no one can match Canon's speed by having over 6144 print nozzles in the head. The borderless 13"x19" print finishes dry in about 3.5 minutes. For the people that demand pigment ink, the commercial Canon machines offer a pigment set of ink, both based on the same type of print head with the same technology built in.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"In choosing weather or not to purchase a six color machine or 8 color, one needs to decide based on what camera they have. It's no secret that agian, Canon has the best digital SLR camera's made in the world. Each year at the PMA in Germany, and arond the world their digital and film cameras come out on top. If someone is just starting out, I would get a i960 or 6000d, if they need text and want decent photo's, I would get a ip4 or 5000. If they have a pro-sumer highend camera or have 5MP or above and are real serious, they should get the ip8500 unless they would like to print wide format. Whoops, I mean large-format. -End

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"BTW, the BCI-24 and 21 series ink has the same formula as BCI-3 and would render the quality the same quality. Not bad for low end machines. The BCI-16 in the ip90 portable has now the same ink formula as the BCI-6.
If what you say is true, then by that very logic the BCI-3eBK would clog. But needless to say this is a major disadvantage not letting the consumer make the choice what they want. Plenty of 3rd party pigmented ink around, image-specialists and media street spring to mind. Bigger 3rd party market for Epson though.

It's remarkable the concept of the digital SLR. You don't actually need a single lens reflex system in a digital camera. It's nice but the whole reason for the SLR in the first place was to create a system where the photographer could actually see through the lens making it ever so much easier to do close up photography. Otherwise rangefinders are spiffy and are still used by many wildlife photographers including National Geographic. But it's no secret Canon very much shot them selves in the foot with the when making the switch to the EOS line making FD lenses unuseable on their cameras where Nikon and Pentax actually respect the fact that photographers who already invested hundrads if not thousands of dollars in glass. And point per pound even small format hold more data than CD-rom and DVD and is rated beyond 5-10 years. I wouldn't buy a Canon Digital SLR due to the fact that they abandoned the EX line which would have at least been compatable with my already existing FD lens set and switched to EOS making sure to adjust the focal length just enough that one would need a 1.6x adapter adding distortion and making those wide angle and fish eye lenses worthless.

But needless to say it's a very invalid assumption that the only criteria for picking colors is the raw MP of a camera. Digital photography is only one of many applications and even then even your lame old 2mp camera (interpellated up to 3.2/4 and not marked as such) is still going to capture at least 24bit color. I.e. there would be a benifit to a wider color gambit. Other applications would be film, artwork, you name it. But everyone I know whether they have a Canon, Pentax, or Nikon and actually make money from their printers... they have Epsons if not HPs. As you pointed out Canon offers very little choice for their inks, they just pick one and go with it, and a not very lightfast choice either. But at the end of the day the main reason Canon printers are not taken as seriously by digital slr owners is the lack of any sort of color accuracy. You can quote specs till you are blue in the face but it's but if the colors are off (periwinkle skies and purple pandas) it's going to be tossed as an option even one has a mechanicaly superior product. It seems to be a big secret how to set your color curves to compensate for all the adjustments the canon drivers make. And this is comming from a Canon owner. The true critics are far less kind. Lightfastness as been a huge issue and will continue to be an issue until we get that new formula but for now that's a pipe dream as i've not actually seen it used or tested. Something sold in september isn't going to help someone who's buying today. I feel deep shame for buying into an FD series SLR.

But really the best way to determine what someone needs is to actually ask them, find out what their application is first, then show them a digital original followed up with the printer's output esp when we're talking consumer printers. Numbers without context are absolutly meaningless, With a budget of $150 given the choice between an ip4000, ip960, and epson r200, by the numbers i'd likely pick the ip960. But by the output, in terms of color accuracy and fine detail between stark black and white space I would and did pick the r200. But given the r200 had to spend time in the shop I picked up a ip3000 just for laughs followed up by the mp760. I might trade in the r200 for something canon, but my choice is not totally without regrets. I hate the interface and the fact that I have to remember that this paper requires +2 intensity, this CD requires +10 and these Fuji's require +22 and "why the heck did you center my red always too much magenta and yellow go away red".

But it doesn't really matter what "canon" calls "wide" format, it's a vague term at best. Why not stick to the format of paper they take or width in inchs, 8.5 11 13 14 too big for you. Or better still... anyone in the market for 11 wide is going to know what A3 is. And I think the criticism was not only using ambiguous terms but going off on a tangent about A3+ printers when someone was looking at letter sized.

Regarding the inks, the bci-16 is ultra confusing. that would sugest a pre BJ-2000 based on their old number scheme. I.e. dont see epson as being any better. That's sad they are going to continue with the 9.5ml thimble sized cart... that is a classicly lexmark tactic... they should feel deep shame.
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