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Old Jul 13, 2005, 3:32 PM   #11
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phplarry wrote:
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idle,

very informative.

did you mean Chinese chipset can "crack" Epson's driver and enforce printer recognizing it as an original epson chipset? if so, I wont go that route, because it's illegal. you know, Chinese is pretty good at violating copyright. They dont respect copyright and patent at all.Besides, we will get into trouble if using such system too.
I need to gather more information about "CIS". If any of you has tried http://Inkrepublic.com CIS, please feed me more info. especially the "chipset recognition" part.
This is an interesting subject. If you are using a windows PC it has a long history of being hacked, first the rom was reverse engineered by compaq then by a whole slew of people afterwards and was done to such a great extent that the last PCs actually sold by IBM had roms by either Award, Phonex, or AMI. Come to think about it even the last compaqs I saw had motherboards by Asus.

Now driver cracking is also interesting... I remember a person who patched and old terminal emulation program to work with more modern equipment, but got sued for $1.00 for releasing this derivative work (mostly because he replaced the orgin authors name with his own), and had to settle for a program to patch the software distributed seperatly.

Now while it could be said there is much piracy in china, there are a number of people who are equaly as good at following the rules. For example those ultra cheap DVD players that include DVD-rom drives don't have to pay license fees to the copyright holders because they are already paid by folks who made the rom drive.Very smart, and 100% legal, and as a bonus if it breaks chances are it's a $20 part.

I honestly don't know the current status of chips on epsons and copyright. But if your saying that someone somewhere figured out how to patch the driver so it won't complain about 3rd party in chips... this sounds 100% legal to me. After all, you get the driver legaly with the printer from epson, and a 3rd party program could in theory just change a few lines of code to get rid of that annoying popup message, so long as they are not distrubuting Epson's driver without their permission. Reverse engeneiring the chips while would have been legal in the past might not nessicarly be today. You have the whole Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (ยง2302(c)) which basicly would require them to give you free ink if they required that you use a specific brand of ink. Whether they are actually allowed under the law to continue with that annoying popup is a mystery to me.




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Old Jul 13, 2005, 7:52 PM   #12
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did you mean Chinese chipset can "crack" Epson's driver and enforce printer recognizing it as an original epson chipset? if so, I wont go that route, because it's illegal.
There appears to be nothing illegal about it -- all the US vendors of CIS units that I've looked at are using Chinese chips (and cartridges, fittings and other parts, as a rule.)

I have a CIS unit sitting on the shelf right now that was shipped to me from the US in a perfectly straight-forward deal -- all its parts are sourced from China.

I might also suggest that the printer you now own is your property -- if you choose to modify it, use other than Epson supplies in it or feed it through a shredder, you are quite free to do so.

After all, when you handed over your money for it, did you (or even could you?) place any restriction upon what Epson did with that money?

Life is a two-way street, even if it does look rougher on your side.
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Old Jul 14, 2005, 12:57 PM   #13
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The discussion has been interesting so far!

I'm not worried about the large initial cost of a CIS as over it's lifetime it should recoup that through lower ink costs. Neither am I worried by slightly lower quality from a CIS, i'm not a professional after all.

The only thing stopping me from buying one straight away is the possibility of running into problems through lack of use.

I have seen one cartridge re-fill system from one of the more well-known 3rd Party Dealers but it uses a sponge instead of a damper system. I have been told thats a no-no. Why are sponge type cartridges frowned on though?
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Old Jul 14, 2005, 2:47 PM   #14
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redundo wrote:
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The discussion has been interesting so far!

I'm not worried about the large initial cost of a CIS as over it's lifetime it should recoup that through lower ink costs. Neither am I worried by slightly lower quality from a CIS, i'm not a professional after all.

The only thing stopping me from buying one straight away is the possibility of running into problems through lack of use.

I have seen one cartridge re-fill system from one of the more well-known 3rd Party Dealers but it uses a sponge instead of a damper system. I have been told thats a no-no. Why are sponge type cartridges frowned on though?
Now this i'm totally unsure about. I had some sponge free carts for the epson that I bought from Hong Kong and they were nothing but trouble for me. Firstly they required negative pressure to fill, and ink would only flow from one chamber, it wouldn't for example suck ink for all of them till I put in an extra vent hole. Perhaps others with more experence can actually reccomend one or a fill ratio that works.

Now i'm on the canon I'm using the sponges simply because those are the ones that are available and those are the ones. They will eventually clog but the cost to replace is relativly cheap.


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Old Jul 14, 2005, 3:38 PM   #15
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zakezuke wrote:
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Now this i'm totally unsure about. I had some sponge free carts for the epson that I bought from Hong Kong and they were nothing but trouble for me. Firstly they required negative pressure to fill, and ink would only flow from one chamber, it wouldn't for example oops ink for all of them till I put in an extra vent hole.......
are you talking about JLWSALE ?? I dont know about their system. from what I see, the good looking bottles do not do anything good. because the physical part which contacts with print head is cartridge not bottles. It is very important to get good nozzles otherwise you are wasting you ink in nozzle check or cleaning.

Asides that, that Hong Kong guy's English looks crapy... I am wondering if he can communicate with customers.

I did google for a while, saw tons of good/same lookings but crap and cheap system where do not show anything about their installation, that's my hesitation too. on videohelp.com, I aslo saw several people actually got big problem with JLW's CIS. some said it was working great during the first few moths and ran into nothing but trouble afterward. others said it's painful to get it start at very beginning. I believe that's depends on the experience as well as "degree of handy".

the only system that makes sense to me is from inkrepublic.

http://www.inkrepublic.com/installation.asp

I like the way they present their products. Igot the most of idea how to install their CIS from their site. Other companies just put one or two "universal" pictures, did not put any effort on the presentation. They probably just want to "sell and forget" which you may become "buy and forget" too if you run into trouble and ask no help from these companies.

About the chipset recognition, it is quite important to me. I "may" know a little bit about it. I have been working in embedded system industry, in bridgeboard or chipset, most of time, there is a vendor ID which is universal. Lets say Epson's vender ID is 0X001. This ID is to identify if this is original cartridge from Epson. If Chinese hacks it, they must put the same vender ID. Justs like somebody is selling President's SSN and information in public...Do you still think it is legal?? I dont know how to idetify such situation.

But, YES, you are right, I buy the printer, I can do whatever I want.

I will need to do some more research on this leaglly issue to see if it is acceptable to buy my idea.


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Old Jul 15, 2005, 11:55 PM   #16
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CIS?

can I know what does that stand for?

very interesting thread. I will keep an eye on it!
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Old Jul 16, 2005, 12:25 AM   #17
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Quote:
I aslo saw several people actually got big problem with JLW's CIS. some said it was working great during the first few moths and ran into nothing but trouble afterward. others said it's painful to get it start at very beginning. I believe that's depends on the experience as well as "degree of handy".
No, I wasn't talking specifically about the JLW Sales unit -- in fact I was one who had trouble with it (unfortunately I didn't buy it from him, but from another vendor using the same parts.)

It installed fairly easily, started printing with no more bother than the OEM carts, but failed in a couple of months -- the cyan cartridge suddenly stopped printing and I couldn't get it back.

Other users have had exactly the same problem, usually with the cyan.

When removed the cartridges also proved to have shoddy 'O' rings in the outlet ports and completely unbaffled tanks allowing the ink to surge far too much, so I didn't persevere with it -- I'll use some of the parts and the remainder of the ink when the opportunity presents itself.

However, he now has a redesigned unit with a much better looking cartridge (obviously from a different manufacturer) that looks very like some back-of-envelope sketches I'd done myself -- I might add that I've considerable practical experience with liquid flow-control.

As for his after-sales service, most reports I've seen have been favourable -- unlike the person I bought mine from, who doesn't answer emails once he's got your money.

His command of English looks as good as most to whom it's not their primary language, and a very great deal better than my Chinese.

Please note, however, that I've never done business with him, and I am NOT promoting his product (or anyone else's), just remarking that what I can see of his new model (he had some quite detailed views of it on Ebay -- don't know if they're still up) looks as good as I've seen yet -- the only thing I'd quarrel with is the selection of a smaller diameter tube, which might give trouble with pigment inks.

As to the chip code copyright issue, your knowledge may well exceed mine (I would hope so!), but so far as I can see Epson are not as yet sueing anyone over it, and they can afford plenty of lawyers.

They have in fact recently taken action in the US over some compatible cartridges, but it was a packaging issue and didn't involve the chips, so my guess is that this was because they can't.

Even if they did, I can't see them going after individual users, who of course are also their hardware customers.


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Old Jul 18, 2005, 7:58 AM   #18
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steveanderson wrote:
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CIS?

can I know what does that stand for?

very interesting thread. I will keep an eye on it!

A CIS system stands for Constant Ink Supply, I think another variation of the name is CFS - Constant Flow Supply.

All they are is a 'fake' ink cartridge which is connected via tubing to large seperate bottled inks outside the printer. Most normal ink cartridges holds 15ml of ink whereas the bottles can hold as much as 100ml of ink - over 6 times the quantity of a cartridge.

As I understand it the main problem with CIS systems is getting the ink to flow smoothly and consistently from bottle to print head. A few things can go wrong; suction drawing ink back into the bottle and letting air into the system, poor sealing around the 'fake' cartridge causing leaks and various other issues.

The advantage to the system is greatly reduced cost.
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Old Oct 21, 2005, 5:18 AM   #19
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Hi folks,

This has become something of a pet topic for me lately as I'm busy putting together kits for a number of client schools who see the benefits in a big way...

Rather than repeat myself I posted a review of some kits I've been using/testing here:
http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/v...c.php?id=55085
(See post Oct 18th)


For your info there's a few other acronyms and keywords to bear in mind:
CIS - continuous ink supply
CFS - continuous flow system
"spongeless" cartridges
"Dampers" - type of feed mechanism that contains very little ink and just helps feed the print head without freeflowing.


Manufacturers I've come across to date:
- Lyson (usually for professional wide format printers http://www.lynimage.com/epson_continuous_ink_system.html)
- MIS Associates (http://www.inksupply.com)
- InkRepublic (http://www.inkrepublic.com)
- JWL (see ebay.com)
- JWL Clones (usually Chinese and generally to be avoided - also on ebay.com)



In terms of when is it worth it... Well I spent 2 days pulling all the figures together on a spreadsheet and created some rather nifty formulae (if I do say so myself ) that provide a reasonable comparison between Epson branded, Generic, and a MIS kit...

Whilst my figures were for a maintained system (ie: me mod'ing and maintaining printer) and also bearing in mind I took manufacturers figures on RRP, etc... the general result was as follows:

Epson cartridges are only viable until you've bought about 3 sets (then a CIS is the cheaper option)

Generic cartridges (I used InkRite for comparison) are only viable until you've bought about 12 sets (then a CIS is the cheaper option).



As to which one to go for... well, I'd read the review I linked to above to see which I'd recommend. Hope that helps...
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Old May 28, 2006, 2:01 PM   #20
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Hello fellas! I came to the forum today just to post on this topic.



I purchased a r800 on ebay for $70+$30 shipping

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWN:IT

I purchased a CIS system on ebay which was prefilled and contained 100 ML of ink (normal carts only have 14 ml)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWN:IT



I also purchased paper rolls on there. One was a good deal, the other wasnt after I did some searching. So I lost $8 bucks bo hoo!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWN:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWN:IT

Considering it costs only $11 per cartridge I thoguht I would give it a shot. All I can say is that it works great. The instructions state to pry off a spring which I did nto find and then just take the lid off of the cartride area. You also have to run the printer with the top open, but if you had a hacksaw (which I dont think I want to do) you could cut a hole for the hose whih goes off to the side.

At first I was dissapointed since the prints were turning out awful and I could not figture out how to get the air out of the lines.

Well once I figure out which caps to take off the bottles to let the air in, the rest is history.

There is nothing to lose even if you let the ink dry up its only $11 per color. :-)

Now I want an 1800 but I dont see as good of deals on those.

Epson is selling refurb r800s for 199 with a 1 year warranty. That would have been my next place to purchase from if I didnt win the items from ebay.



Cheers!



KM






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