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Old Jul 19, 2005, 5:45 AM   #1
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I currently have a HP 8450. I am looking for a new photo printer to replace it. I already have a text printer so thats not important on the new one. And it will only be used for photo printing from a computer so a LCD screen and media slots are not important either. Neither is CD printing. I just want a really good photo printer that prints as good as my HP 8450. The reason for replacing the HP is ink and photo dry time. This printer swallows ink as soon as you put it in the printer. That was the one thing I liked about my old i960. The ink lasted for ever. But there was no comparison in the printouts. The Canon prints were 2D and flat and the HP prints were 3D and so much more vivid colors and depth. But the printouts took forever to dry. I have prints now I printed 2 weeks ago and still cannot put them behind plastic sleeves because they still stick to it. So any info would be a great help.
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 8:57 AM   #2
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Any print, inkjet or chemical will stick to glass/plastic if put right up against it.
That is where the matt comes in to seperate the two.

You did not mention a budget, but I was quite impressed with the output from an HP-130 I saw at a trade show this spring. Base unit has a 24inch paper path, individual ink tanks and user replaceable print head. They also prommised to have a RIP for it "sometime soon".
I've only been looking around for a new wide printer, but I bet HP would have smaller brothers for this printer too in their lineup.

The sample output on their matched papers was stunning.

If you want non HP, I've pretty well settled on the Epson 7800, whos smaller borthers are the 4800 and R2400 (UltraChrome K3 inkset) and r1800 (home consumer printer, not sure which UltraChrome inkset it uses)

Canon makes good and very fast printers too, but I have had nothing but bad luck with them.

Peter.
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 3:00 PM   #3
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arowana wrote:
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I currently have a HP 8450. I am looking for a new photo printer to replace it. I already have a text printer so thats not important on the new one. And it will only be used for photo printing from a computer so a LCD screen and media slots are not important either. Neither is CD printing. I just want a really good photo printer that prints as good as my HP 8450. The reason for replacing the HP is ink and photo dry time. This printer swallows ink as soon as you put it in the printer. That was the one thing I liked about my old i960. The ink lasted for ever. But there was no comparison in the printouts. The Canon prints were 2D and flat and the HP prints were 3D and so much more vivid colors and depth. But the printouts took forever to dry. I have prints now I printed 2 weeks ago and still cannot put them behind plastic sleeves because they still stick to it. So any info would be a great help.
I'm going to assume you want an a4 / letter sized printer.

You might want to look at the output of the other choices in the high end consumer inkjet here http://www.tomshardware.com/consumer..._bright_colors

I must admit I like the HP 8450 even if it's a tad costly to operate. I think what you mean by 3d is the fact that it as a grey cart producing very good shadows. I could be wrong, I find it hard to translate subjective to quanitative. This your not very likely to find on other printers, except perhaps an Epson r2400 which is not an a4 printer and costs a wee bit less than $1000.

The i960 was pretty good, in fact has a larger head than the current i6000. But since you didn't like the output you've just eliminated one printer as a possible choice, and chances are because the ip4000 doesn't have light inks that's probally not your bag either. That leaves the ip5000 (higher resoluition K CMYK) and ip8500 (more colors CMYRGKlClM) in canon.

In Epson you have the r200/r300 dye printers and the r800 (CMYBRKmatteKphoto) pigment printer. There is also the r1800/r2400 but both are a3+ printers. Since you don't need the screen you can scratch away the r300.

But drytime to put in sleaves is something i've not presently tested in any offical scientific way, just leave the print from my ip3000 or r200 out for an hour and then put into the sleave has been what i've been doing. I can say I give my canon prints about 30min before I use the chopper and a plastic triangle as a flat edge and dont' notice smearing or sticking. The r200 was more likely to leave an imprint on my jewel cases if I was in a hurry. I've observed that my hp950... very much an older printer... it was more prone to smearing.





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Old Jul 19, 2005, 4:34 PM   #4
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The Epson R1800 has the similar mixed mode carts lineup:
Gloss Optimizer, Black, Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Red, Matt-Black, Blue.

The R2400 has the new UltraChrome K3 pigment inkset with 3 different shades of black cartridges:
Black, Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Lite Cyan, Lite Magenta, Lite Black, Matt Black, Lite Lite Black.
I haven't personally seen a print yet, but reviews have said the new K3 inkset is supposed to produce extremly good color cast free b&w prints.

The older 2200 which can be found at discount prices now if you look around had:
Black, Lite Black, Cyan, lite Cyan, Magenta, Lite Magenta, Yellow

The initial cost of the printer is minimal, when you compare it to the costs of keeping it fed. Ink these days seem to be worth more than gas or gold :? .

Peter.


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I must admit I like the HP 8450 even if it's a tad costly to operate. I think what you mean by 3d is the fact that it as a grey cart producing very good shadows. I could be wrong, I find it hard to translate subjective to quanitative. This your not very likely to find on other printers, except perhaps an Epson r2400 which is not an a4 printer and costs a wee bit less than $1000.
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 5:00 PM   #5
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PeterP wrote:
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The initial cost of the printer is minimal, when you compare it to the costs of keeping it fed. Ink these days seem to be worth more than gas or gold :? .
Gas, yes... that's about $1.95/oz. OEM ink costs more
Gold usually costs more. Gold costs $420ish/oz. Dell cartrages for their AIO printers are 1/3 the cost of gold.

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Old Jul 19, 2005, 5:01 PM   #6
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Thanks for all the replys. As a budget goes, I would really like to stay below 300 dollars. I dont care much for a wide format printer cause I never have anyoneask for anything bigger than an 8x10. And if I do I will send off and have it made. I am not really sure that I needmore than 4 inks. My HP 8450 has 3 ink cartridges in it. 1 photo, 1 color and a black which you can put photo gray in. I have had this printer for a year and the photo tanks are still 3/4 full. The only time you use that ink is when you print in max DPI. I used that once and could not tell any difference in an 8x10 except the paper was heavily saturated with ink. So I always use normal setting. And the HP prints still look better than my Canon prints. The one thing I liked about my i960 was like you said, in about an hour you could put those prints in a frame with no problems. I have week old prints made with my 8450 I still can not put behind glass. I am not against buying another Canon. Best Buy has the 6000 on sale for 150 bucks right now. The 4000 for 130 bucks. I did not see the 5000 though. So would you guys recommend a Canon 4000, 5000, 6000 or something from Epson?

Thanks again.
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 8:31 PM   #7
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arowana wrote:
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Thanks for all the replys. As a budget goes, I would really like to stay below 300 dollars. I dont care much for a wide format printer cause I never have anyoneask for anything bigger than an 8x10. And if I do I will send off and have it made. I am not really sure that I needmore than 4 inks. My HP 8450 has 3 ink cartridges in it. 1 photo, 1 color and a black which you can put photo gray in. I have had this printer for a year and the photo tanks are still 3/4 full. The only time you use that ink is when you print in max DPI. I used that once and could not tell any difference in an 8x10 except the paper was heavily saturated with ink. So I always use normal setting. And the HP prints still look better than my Canon prints. The one thing I liked about my i960 was like you said, in about an hour you could put those prints in a frame with no problems. I have week old prints made with my 8450 I still can not put behind glass. I am not against buying another Canon. Best Buy has the 6000 on sale for 150 bucks right now. The 4000 for 130 bucks. I did not see the 5000 though. So would you guys recommend a Canon 4000, 5000, 6000 or something from Epson?
Thanks again.
Rather than listening to any human, on the printers that support pictbridge I'd say take your digital camera with some photopaper down to your local store and print off a copy of something you know. This is harder on the epsons as some of their printers don't support pictbridge... but at least the r300 does, which is the r200 with the extra screen and memory slots. And heck, bring in some sleaves to test for your self. Most salesfolk don't mind this so long as they can keep the images so others can see how good the output on their printers is.

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Personaly I prefer the Epsons for it's out of the box color rendering and it's consistent results on most media types. Canon I find I have to tweek with the color and intensity depending on what media i'm using.

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I'd rather own the i960 than the ip6000... same resolution but the ip6000 is smaller so it has to make twice as many passes for the same image. Faster and others have reported higher quality output. But you said you found the output on the 960 to be flat, an issue I can't argue with. In fact if I didn't need CD printing I would own the i960.. they are so cheap and IMHO better than the current line except the ip8500.

The ip4000 and ip5000 don't have the extra inks that the ip6000/i960 has, but it does have a pigment black and is very nice with text. The ip4000 is a passible photo printer but chances are if you didn't like the i960 you're not likely to like the ip4000. The ip5000 is somewhat more interesting as it's resolution is higher and one might consider finer dots over light filling inks. While I find the ip4000 adquate for my needs, or rather the mp760, your standards seem to be higher than mine.

The ip8500 which can be had mail order for $300ish has the light inks and red and green. I don't like how it renders skies... I find them a tad warm. Earth tones are nice if a tad cool... extra cyan I believe to and extra vivid quality.

ip4000 - good general purpose printer
ip5000 - higher resolution general purpose printer
ip6000 - Downgraded ip960 with screen
*ip8500 - Good photo printer - the only thing i'd replace a i960 with presently offered 8.5x11.

----------------------
In Epson the r800 might be out of your budget costing $400ish... very much worth looking at. The inks are pigment and there is IIRC a clear cart to help prevent bronzing. These are very much worth looking at... the output in brillient. Some complain about clogged heads but there is an e-mail address i'm sure I can dig up of a guy who offers a free cleaning manual for the epsons. The ultra chrome inks are very very lightfast. I love the skies on this printer.

The Epson r200 while only being $100 are nothing to sneeze at in terms of photo output. I regret switching to Canon as I find the colors on the epson r200 to be more true to the images and not so... garishly vivid. Same coloured inks as the i960 / ip6000, technicaly a larger drop size but oddly enough white text on black is much more clear as 3pt font.

*r800 very nice photo printer - brillent output - pigment long lasting ink
R200 very cheep decent photo printer

-------------------

But unfortunatly I know of nothing, absolutely nothing that is as cool as the hp 8450 for shadows that's under $300... but i'd look at the Canon ip8500 for it's relativly quick drying.... the epson r800 for it's pigmented inks... and the epson r200 for it's look on glossy papers.

I know of no 3rd party ink solutions that offer extra greys. I know media street and others offer grey inks for epson and canon, but the profiles they offer are total printer filled with grey inks, not replacing the red and green with extra greys for example. I should yell at them.

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Old Jul 19, 2005, 9:57 PM   #8
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Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!! You really know alot about printers. First off thanks for the info. Second, I actually did go to circuitcity and bestbuy to try out some printers and I took a cd with a picture on it I had printed out on my HP to compare. I tried the Canon ip4000, 5000 and 6000 as well as the Epson r200 and r300. The Canons were a dissapointment all the way around. They were just as slow as my HP and the color in no way compares to the HP 8450. But I could tell that the prints were not as tacky to the touch after 30 to 45minutes as my HP prints. Now the Epson printers were blazing fast and the colors were very close to the HP. I did not get a chance to check dry time as the store was closing and they keep the prints. The r200 and 300 seem to be the same as far as printing goes but the r300 had a lot of extras I dont want or need. Correct me if I am mistaken. I did not get to sample a r800 or ip8500 because they did not have one on display. They are a little out of my price range anyway. So, the next questions are : Why do the Epsons print faster than the Canons if the Canons have half the dropplet size? And is the larger dropplet size the reason for Epsons clogged printhead problem? And will the Epson prints take longer to dry because of the larger dropplets? And why cant one company make a printer with 8 inks, 1 picolitter dropplets, high speed printing and longlasting, fast drying printouts? And why is the grass green. And why is the sky blue? And why do I have to have so many questions?:?
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 10:56 PM   #9
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arowana wrote:
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Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!! You really know alot about printers. First off thanks for the info. Second, I actually did go to circuitcity and bestbuy to try out some printers and I took a cd with a picture on it I had printed out on my HP to compare. I tried the Canon ip4000, 5000 and 6000 as well as the Epson r200 and r300. The Canons were a dissapointment all the way around. They were just as slow as my HP and the color in no way compares to the HP 8450. But I could tell that the prints were not as tacky to the touch after 30 to 45minutes as my HP prints. Now the Epson printers were blazing fast and the colors were very close to the HP. I did not get a chance to check dry time as the store was closing and they keep the prints. The r200 and 300 seem to be the same as far as printing goes but the r300 had a lot of extras I dont want or need. Correct me if I am mistaken. I did not get to sample a r800 or ip8500 because they did not have one on display. They are a little out of my price range anyway. So, the next questions are : Why do the Epsons print faster than the Canons if the Canons have half the dropplet size? And is the larger dropplet size the reason for Epsons clogged printhead problem? And will the Epson prints take longer to dry because of the larger dropplets? And why cant one company make a printer with 8 inks, 1 picolitter dropplets, high speed printing and longlasting, fast drying printouts? And why is the grass green. And why is the sky blue? And why do I have to have so many questions?:?
Do you get this tackyness on HP papers? In theory they are designed to work together and might resolve your issue. I know it's nice to be able to use anything you want, but it's worth a shot.

Epson is the closest thing you're going to find to 1pl drops... and they are 1.5pl on the r800... out of your price range. In theory Canon will be comming out with 1pl models soon enough... but i'm not sure when they'll have a 1pl 4+2 or 6+2 colour printer. I've been out of the loop as far as HP offerings are concerned. As my major application lately is CD printing they simply don't offer a desktop printer I need.

I think the r200/r300 are 3pl 5760 x 1440 dpi where the canon 2pl models are 4800 x 1200 .

The i8500 should be at the edge of your price range if you mail order, and actually have a lower per page cost. But it would be best to see if that meets your needs. I've "heard" the light inks (light cyan light magenta) are more prone to faiding than the other inks, but I don't know this for a fact. Just food for thought.

Keep in mind that the Canons you looked at are not dedicated photo printers but rather multipurpose with a strong point in text, well except the ip6000 to me is a downgraded i960. The ip4000 and even the ip5000 are great for those people who don't own lasers for text who print off the odd photo from time to time. Oddly enough I found the canons to be faster for printing photos from 4x6 to 8x10.

An epson benifit is "super-micro-weave" mode... ultra slow but ultra good.

The r200 is the r300 without all the extra crap. While I have issues with it... the fact that it wastes ink... the fact that if you don't route the tube in the back to a jug it's diaper gets overfull very quickly... and mine started to clog on the first set of carts, but this is likely due to a problem with the gasket the head sits upon. Piezo printheads are this way, unless they are sealed from the outside enviroment they dry out, foul, clog, go bad, but as long as your gasket is good and stays in place they will last longer than any thermal system (canon or hp) as they use mechanics to squeeze the ink out rather than generating heat to bubble or spew ink, and more tolerant to different types of ink. I did have to take mine into service, and got a referb and free ink for my trouble. I know now that the only thing it needed was to be cleaned as the mess created from the broken ink waste station.... I assume... got on a reflector I couldn't easily see resulting in the head acting like a lost puppy. Had I known that I would have used a paper towel and windex to resolve the issue.

I can't really speak on the issue on print speed. Not something i've looked at.

But personaly I sacraficed quality for peace of mine. The canons are a wee bit less prone to clogging, and you can at least remove the head to clean it or replace it if need be... though the replacement costs almost as much as the printer.



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Old Jul 20, 2005, 5:58 PM   #10
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Yes I have been useing HP paper. The 10 mil. Premium glossy for 4x6s and 8.5x11s. All with the same result. I have my print settings on normal. My ink output on less than default and border overspray on minimum. Last night was the last straw with these prints. I grabbed a shot of a Dragonfly off my wall and took it out of the frame to take with me to test the color accuracy of the other printers. When I got home I noticedfinger prints in the photo. Now that print has been behind glass for at least 3 months. I took some of my Canon i960 prints out of frames to check them and they were dry as can be. I even stepped out side with the print where it was hot and humid and waited for 30 minuites then pressed my thumb on the photo and no print. I just do not understand why the ink wont dry completely. I really love my HP but now that I am shootingpictures and printing them out to sell to clients, this dry time is a real problem. Can anyone post how well there printouts dry from various printers? This would be a big help in making my decision. Thanks guys.
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