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Old Oct 22, 2006, 7:57 PM   #11
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Just for the record when your saying 100 year prints that is if the photo's re stored in an album or something right? I printed 200 4x6 photo's from my Epson R300M and put them on my wall at work which is in a window office that receives a fair amount of sun light. After 1 year they are 60% faded, I am taking them all down on Monday as a result. Is there any solution that can be sprayed on to the photo's after they are printed to extend their life?
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Old Oct 22, 2006, 7:58 PM   #12
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I have photo's fading 40% after 1 year that came out of my Epson R300M. Granted they are on a wall and exposed to sunlight daily but DAMN!
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Old Dec 16, 2006, 11:56 PM   #13
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Hi everyone,

Thought I'd add a little information about pigment inks etc for everyone's info.

Firstly, I run an Australian Company which distributes ink and CISS (continuous ink supply systems) for Epson and Canon printers.

The major issues with TRUE pigment inks (as opposed to hybrid inks combining pigment and dye) are that they tend to be 3-4 times the viscosity of dye inks. This can cause issues by blocking print heads. The other issues is that true pigment inks do not adhere well to gloss papers and where they do adhere they form bubbles on the paper rather than laying flat like dye inks. This causes light to reflect unevenly off the image leading to a dull print (hence why pigment printers like teh R800 Epson comes with a gloss colour ink).

In short Dye produces fantastic vivid prints where true pigment inks are more utilised for posters or prints etc exposed to high levels of UV. Now most dye ink manufacturers (like us) have a UV supressor fluid in the ink which extends the UV life above what some people call generic inks. We have found through experience that the better inks come from the US as Inks from Asia tend to have a large amount of alcohol as a carrier fluid whichmakes fading quicker and can damage print heads long term.

In the Case of CISS units, true pigment inks (unlike water based pigment inks) can cause long term problems as pigment ink is like sand in water. It's great whilst shaken but can be prone to settlement where the pigment settles and can affect print colours and more importantly block the tubing.

More ink information can be obtained from our website www.rihac.com.au

Regards,

Sam Cahir

RIHAC Digital Solutions Australia
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Old Dec 17, 2006, 4:36 AM   #14
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I have been using 100% pigment inks formulated in Asia and used in Epson R230 for the last 10 months, so I can speak from experience.

There have been absolutely no problems with clogging, in both refillable cartridges and continuous flow systems in my or any of my customers printers. The cartridges have not been changed and there have been no special precautions re use of the printers, except to use the printer regularly or at least print a nozzle test pattern every couple of days.

The colour prints on glossy paper are not quite as vivid as dye ink, more so on black, but still pretty good, and definition and contrast are better. Using really glossy white photo paper minimises the reduced reflectivity of the pigment ink, and generally customers are more impressed by the same image printed with pigment ink as opposed to dye ink. On matte paper the colours are way better.

However, when it comes to durability, there is no comparison, the pigment colours do not fade, even in difficult conditions. I have a test print which has been posted on a window for nine months with full exposure to the morning sun and it is still as good as the day it was printed. The photo paper is starting to yellow, but the print, including red ink, is as new. Prints using dye ink, under the same condtions, and despite the manufacturers claims, just fade away. If you want to archive your prints, or expose them to UV light or chemicals like ozone or kitchen odours and gasses, dye ink is not the one to use with confidence.

And if pigment inks are supposed to give problems in inkjet printers like clogging, how come they are used in the R800/R1800 and in the Epson and HP wide format printers. I have a customer using a continuous flow ink system in an Epson 7600 to do commercial prints, using my pigment inks, and the results are superb. As well, he now uses Epson R230 with pigment ink for his smaller prints, previously when he was using a Canon printer using dye ink, he had to put a warning on his prints to avoid exposing them to UV light, he no longer has this warning since converting to pigment ink and he guarantees his prints will not fade.

On my experience, pigment inks win hands down if you want to display or sell your prints, who wants to buy an expensive print to find it fades away when exposed to UV light or certain chemicals and gasses. I can guarantee my pigment inks against fading, I have yet to hear any suppliers of generic dye inks guarantee their inks against fading.
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Old Dec 17, 2006, 5:05 AM   #15
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Hi all,

Yes I agree with your post but you are referring to water based pigment inks (true pigmented inks are either solvent based or alcohol based) which are designed for remote head printers like the Epson. We do stock and distribute pigment inks (water based) and the R800 actaully uses a hybrid pigment ink which is a mix of dye and pigment. True pigment printers (for example wide format printers) have detached head printers, i.e the print head is in the cartridge. This means that when the pigment settles or blocks the heads they simply replace the cartridge head.

The fact is that Pigment ink regardless of your supplier will have a narrower colour gamut. There is no way to replicate the colour gamut of dye inks. You will certainly get a much higher UV life than with dye inks. Again true pigment inks do not adhere to gloss papers and are also prone to bronzing. Bronzing is where the black layer (laid last) disappears when the print is tilted, kind of like a mirage caused by petrol on a roadway.

In short water based pigment inks do have there place and can be especially good when used on Matte papers but Dye inks will always produce brighter more vivid colours due to the reflection properties and wider colour gamut

Regards,

Sam Cahir

RIHAC Digital Solutions Australia

www.rihac.com.au
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Old Jan 7, 2007, 2:57 AM   #16
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Hello, i found the discussion about fading very interesting, so here is a bit of my own experience that could serve to others. First, i like very much just to print letter sizesome of my best photos and tape them on my office wall, without bothering with framing and/or putting them under a protective glass; well, i have so many... I was always frustrated to see them fading away within few months; but that seemed to be thefate of photos printed with inkjet printers. Last year, my daughter compleated a course in photography started a business and got her digital photos devepopped in a lab.To reduce her cost andto get rid of my frustration, i started to take a closer look at the inkjet printers. I was aiming at a printer:

1-that gives good quality photos in term of resolution and color spectrum (acuracy of the color was not my priority cause it can be adjusted with an appropriate "profile"),

2- that has separate ink cartriges that can be refilled,

3- that can use ink which the colorslast long enought (a couple of years)when exposed without protection to daylight and many more time when stored in a wedding album (humm, 50 years would be ok cause most of the couple dont last that long hehehe).

Need number -1: to satisfied my first need, i came to the conclusion that the printer must havemore than the 4 basic colors, and reallu small droplets.Small tones differences can only be achive with a great variation of color mixed. As an hypotetical example, let us supposed that at a certain point, the paper can accept only 20 picoliters of ink before it gets saturated:at the limit, if the droplets are 20 picoliters, you cannot mix your colors... 4 color printer would give you 4 colors,6 colors printer would give you 6 colors, and soon.On the other hand, if the droplets are 5 picoliters, you have much more combinations, and even more as your droplets gets smaller. Thishypotetical example show that thesize of the droplets can improve the resolution, ok; but it also improvethe tone diversity. Most of the newer printers have droplets smaller than 2 picoliters, and the "Photo" printers use at least 6 differents colors. There are many good Epson, Canon, HP and maybe other make that uses at least 6 colors and shoot droplets equal or smaller that 2 picoliters. New Canons claims to shoot 1 picoliter droplets, Epson R3XX shoot 1.5 picoliters droplets, HP, i dont know, but i suspect thet the ones that uses the series 02 cartriges can satisfy this need.

Need number -2: most of the newest Epson cartriges can be easily refilled after resetting the "chip" just by drilling a hole on top of the cartrige and injecting the ink. The "old" Canon cartriges (up to the series 6) are quite easily refillable by closing the ink output, drilling a hole on the top (tank side; not the sponge side), injecting the ink and sealing back the hole. The newest Canon cartriges are chipped so i dont know. I saw refillable HP serie 02 on the net. ... for other make, i dont know!

Need number -3: that is the heart of the discussion: expensive long lasting dull pigment used in a limited number of printers: large, expensive professional models and Epson, compared to cheap fast fading brillant dye that can be used in any printer. Yes, the pigment based ink is not fading compared to dye based ink. I have some pigment ink photos on my wall since almost one year now, and i dont see any fading. I can also say that, as i am concerned about fading, i bought some high quality "UV" (ot fade resistant) dye based ink, that resist quite well to fading compared to the one i printed with "cheap" dye ink... but that ink is as expensive as the "pigment" ink. You can also ad to the fading resistance (and to the price) by spraying your photos with a protecting film or frame it behind a protective glass. I use an Epson r320 with cartriges filled with pigment ink without problems. Of course, i did not mix Pigment with Dye cause they might precipitate cause of chemical reactions. If you want to use pigment ink in the Epsons serie R, start it when new with pigment ink, or wash your system (cart and heads) before you use pigment ink, otherwise you have good chance toclog the heads. The same caution apply if you want to switch from Pigment to Dye... clean your system before.

In conclusion, if you produce flyers or any document that dont needs to last very long, you can use any ink; but whybother with expensive Pigment ink or even, also expensive fade resistant Dye ink. Canon and HP "photo" printers (6 colors or more) printvery nice photosand are usualy much fasters than Epson... well, you can use Epson too, at a slower pace. If you tape your photos on the wall for a couple of years (like i do) or frame thembehind a protective glass or put them in albums for the time kids are growing, then, you can usepigment ink or choose a more brilliant Dye fade resistant ink... but be certain it is really fade resistant. If you are more concerned about long lasting photos and documents in general, you dont have the choice to use Pigment ink... or get your documents printer on laser and your photos developped in a lab.

Hope my experience and comments could serve to anyone,

dye... oopss, bye,

TALVIS


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Old Jan 10, 2007, 2:55 AM   #17
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So has anyone come up with any smooth ways to perserve prints? I really like printing out stuff and hanging it on my office wall but I get sick of having it all fade away. Can I spray the photo's with some UV protective layer or possibly laminate them or something. I just want some direction
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Old Jan 10, 2007, 2:56 AM   #18
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* deleting double post *
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