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Old Jun 9, 2006, 1:37 PM   #31
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As someone who owns non-chipped Canon printer and no chipped Canons its somewhat easy to say I don't have a dog in this fight---but with non-chipped Canons now getting hard to find and the fact that no printer last forever, we have to conclude this chipped stuff is the forseeable future.

But here I was under the impression that refilling a chipped Canon wasa a solved cut and dried problem of just navigating some nag screens---and now its clear that its not as cut and dried---with perhaps the "curiouser and curiouser" being exactly the right words.

With the possibility that this Canon chip scheme may violate trade standards in the UK and maybe also the Magnussan law in the US. Which then raises the question what could happen if perhaps such an issue was raised and it prevailed over Canon's objections? One one hand you could get a nothing victory--something like the recent Epson suit where the victims of the scheme get some credit at the Epson website--perhaps enough to buy a partial set of replacement OEM cartridges.

But what would happen in a best case senario case---where the powers that be say point blank to Canon--
"Fix it"------either issue a full refund to all chipped Canon owners and quit selling chipped Canons in future in the juristiction of the decision--or alternately fix the problem. Since the former case would be expensive, its worth examining how could it be fixed---which then asks is the chipping scheme entirely a hardware problem
or could it be solved by simply rewriting the Canon printer software?--and if that latter case is true, its no legal question that Canon would have that legal right to rewrite its own software--which by the way may differ from Canon region to region.

But the other raised question then becomes---could someone legally decompile the Canon chipped software and then recompile it such a way that it defeats the chip---and then make that software freely available on the internet?--on either a totally free or small fee basis without Canon being able to stop such a program's disemination.

But my last comment is that here lots of people have been beating their heads against the wall to crack the chip itself with no results yet---maybe its worth looking at another way---and that way may well be controlling in software how the chip talks to the printer.

And my last question is---are all chipped Canons basically behaving in this curious way or is it just occuring in some Canon regions.---and not in others.
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Old Jun 9, 2006, 1:51 PM   #32
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Given that there's another report here:
http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/v...mp;forum_id=57
... with a similar problem I think I may be seeing a pattern here and it's not pretty.


My hypothesis is as follows:

The printer will, when the final cartridge "runs out" accept the nag screens for a replacement cartridge and then continue to print until one or more of the cartridges is removed while the printer is on.

I suspect this causes the printer to lock up and refuse to print, probably on the basis that it cannot "see" the ink levels.. Now this is as I say just a theory and I'm loath to scr*w up my one "empty" but working printer to test this theory.


There could of course be a time delay on this but it seems that both problem reports indicate that they had refilled their cartridges, topped them up, etc.. which mean't taking one or more out of the printer before replacing. Then of course they got the "I'm not printing..!" message... hence my theory.


Osage, I'm in agreement here.. but ultimately what we need now is to confirm whether this is true or not and then proof... From there on in it's a case of finding a big stick to beat the cr*p out of Canon, either through trading standards or some company willing to take them on. Whatever happens it'll take months to years before they do anything so my guess is that the smart move is to get the evidence and then spread it far and wide to the press, including the tech magazines, online review sites and others..

Hurting Canons pocket through loss of sales is going to be much more effective than any half baked Epson style wrist slap.


But, like I said, we need to find out if this is really a Canon dirty tricks routine or just bad cartridges...






EDIT: Oooh... theory for a possible workaround..

You'll need a non-empty Canon cartridge..

1. Replace one of the cartridges with your non-empty canon cart
2. Turn the power on..
3. You could let it prime or you could just yank the power cord out now
4. Move the carriage unit out and then take out the new canon and put back your refilled one
5. Put the power back in
6. Turn on the printer

See what happens..

This is just a wild assed guess but it might reset something... It's worth a try if you're already scr*wed though right?





EDIT #2:

Theory: How to avoid locking up your printer - pro-active approach?

This is a total guess but based on observation so give it a try and see if it works...

When needing to refill cartridges..

DO NOT REMOVE A CARTRIDGE WHILE THE PRINTER IS TURNED ON OR PLUGGED IN

It's obvious that the printer is capable of detecting when a cartridge has been removed (I've seen it indicate such when removing OEM carts with a blinking light) so to avoid it detecting a removal the smart move is to:
- open the lid (this causes the carriage unit to move to replacement position)
- pull the power cord out of the printer (or just turn it off at the mains) BE CAREFUL! (it's still electricity you know!)
- remove the cartridge(s) you want to refill
- fill them up and replace them in the printer (still unplugged)
- check everything is in place and seated correctly
- plug the printer back in
- turn the printer back on


This is a guess but given that my own printer (which has a CIS in it) hasn't failed yet I'm guessing I'm going to be able to continue to print for ages until either a timer trips or I forget about this post and remove a cartridge to solve an air leak or something, with the printer still on.



If I'm right you gotta admire the sneaky S.O.B. that came up with this idea it's just evil.. so it'll be nice when he's held responsible for a big lawsuit... :blah:
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Old Jun 9, 2006, 2:39 PM   #33
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We all applaud the effort that many people are devoting to this problem........but it may be that finding the Holy grail stands more chance of success..........but we wont give up quite just yet.

BUT...........the chips are told by the printer what their life has been like, how many times that carts color nozzles have fired....and when they should be empty. The Chip is told and displays this info each time it is interrogated on the start up of the printer.

Swopping the carts around either with the power on or off will make no difference.

The chip will tell the printer its particular condition when the printer is eventually powered up, If it has been emptied by the requisite number of nozzle fires, it will report this to the printer and not get its light lit up.

Am I wrong to think this way?...........I sincerely hope I am..............
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Old Jun 9, 2006, 2:55 PM   #34
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headphonesman wrote:
Quote:
The chip will tell the printer its particular condition when the printer is eventually powered up, If it has been emptied by the requisite number of nozzle fires, it will report this to the printer and not get its light lit up.

Am I wrong to think this way?...........I sincerely hope I am..............
Heya...

Just to clarify.. you're completely right about the way the printer works in relation to knowing when the cartridges are empty but we've sort of moved away from that now to deal specifically with a new problem.

ie: the printer seems to be capable of locking users out of being able to use their printer after they've refilled the final cartridge. We're a bit hazy on what triggers this or if it is indeed a lock out mechanism but the fact that inserting a new OEM cart into the printer unlocks the printer and allows you to print again does seem highly suspicious.

So, the last page worth of posts have been centered around confirming what two people have now reported and figuring out a way to stop or avoid this lock in the first place..

Does that clear things up a little?
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Old Jun 9, 2006, 6:19 PM   #35
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Quote:
So, the last page worth of posts have been centered around confirming what two people have now reported and figuring out a way to stop or avoid this lock in the first place..
yes thankyou Websnail , I am aware of the latest hurdle that may have been thrown in our way and the possibility that a Full/unexpired chipped cart in the mix may prevent lockout,......

When I first heard of this and the registry entries, I decided that Full status carts might be a bit more precious than i was treating them, I decided to take them out and run with my drilled and filled set (except the Large Black, which is still undrilled).

I resolved that at all times there should be at least one "Full "Chip cart present.When i put the re-fills in the M and the C were both flashing slowly.......not unexpected and not crucial. That was 2 days ago.

After reading your latest post and sending off mine (about on/off power possibilities), I thought i should at least try your method of power ON/Off ...I could try to defeat the carts that were flashing by installing my Full ones and then pulling the power lead, then replacing the flashers back....

I went to the 5200 and switched it on (PC was off). Opened the cover , head to center,..........BUT all the carts had STEADY reds !. None were flashing. Thinking that perhaps the PC had to be in the chain I booted it up.......no change ...still steady reds. I was not in a position to carry out any of your ideas.

I cannot explain what is going on , I do think that the answer may be found in a crazy/ mysterious sequence that needs to be followed, I know for a fact that 2 carts were flashing....because I reported the fact to my son in an e-mail about my findings regarding the registry entries.

As soon as I can I will try and do the power on/off thing.....but i will have to wait till i have a problem cart...........again.

It will be interesting what Canon have to say, (but I`m not holding my breath). They may say the chips are to prevent you using a BCI 6 cart(s) in error.......






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Old Jun 9, 2006, 7:12 PM   #36
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headphonesman wrote:

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yes thankyou Websnail , I am aware of the latest hurdle that may have been thrown in our way and the possibility that a Full/unexpired chipped cart in the mix may prevent lockout,......
Ah sorry if it sounded condescending.. just wanted to be sure we were all on the same page.


Quote:
When I first heard of this and the registry entries, I decided that Full status carts might be a bit more precious than i was treating them, I decided to take them out and run with my drilled and filled set (except the Large Black, which is still undrilled).

I resolved that at all times there should be at least one "Full "Chip cart present.When i put the re-fills in the M and the C were both flashing slowly.......not unexpected and not crucial. That was 2 days ago.

After reading your latest post and sending off mine (about on/off power possibilities), I thought i should at least try your method of power ON/Off ...I could try to defeat the carts that were flashing by installing my Full ones and then pulling the power lead, then replacing the flashers back....

I went to the 5200 and switched it on (PC was off). Opened the cover , head to center,..........BUT all the carts had STEADY reds !. None were flashing. Thinking that perhaps the PC had to be in the chain I booted it up.......no change ...still steady reds. I was not in a position to carry out any of your ideas.

I cannot explain what is going on , I do think that the answer may be found in a crazy/ mysterious sequence that needs to be followed, I know for a fact that 2 carts were flashing....because I reported the fact to my son in an e-mail about my findings regarding the registry entries.

As soon as I can I will try and do the power on/off thing.....but i will have to wait till i have a problem cart...........again.
So, let me get this straight.. You had cartridges that were indicating as becoming empty and they've somehow reset themselves?

Am I misinterpreting something here?


Quote:
It will be interesting what Canon have to say, (but I`m not holding my breath). They may say the chips are to prevent you using a BCI 6 cart(s) in error.......
I'm expecting to get another "we do not support non-canon products" email back ie: just ignoring the question completely in the hope it'll go away...

.. which is won't
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Old Jun 9, 2006, 8:18 PM   #37
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Quote:
So, let me get this straight.. You had cartridges that were indicating as becoming empty and they've somehow reset themselves?
Yes................but how and why ..and whether its a temporary fluke we shall have to see............perhaps the flashing was some sort of temporary mis-reading.....and now its on its correctcouse again..

The Ink Status window shows the 2 blacks and yellow as being half full and the Magenta and Cyan as being "full ". all lights steady red.

Message in pane "ink levels are adequate"

I may try and repeat the swopover again to see if i can replicate the situation.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"One thing is certain ...its only by continuous discussion and the pooling of all information that we will arrive at the truth..............which we may not like .......but at least we will know where we are ...(at last !)
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Old Jun 10, 2006, 2:15 AM   #38
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The situation was temporary.......When i went back to replicate the two carts were flashing on start up, This was confirmed using the Ink Status monitor, which said that the two carts were very low , with exclamation marks above them.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"The registry entries also gave a value of 10 against these 2 carts......(before when the lights were steady it had been 100). When I put my good carts in, there was no flashing.............the registry still said 10 each......when i asked for ink status it updated.....".full "carts on those 2........the registry reading went to 100 also.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"when I put the 2 nearly empty carts back in they started flashing (slow). The reading in the Registry remained at 100. I rebooted the PC checked the carts still flashing, the registry said 100 still. As soon as I asked for ink status it updated the registry and the ink status pane.....to ink low in 2 carts.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"sorry if there is too much repetition..... I am afraid that it appears that the chip is playing a very central , independent, role. This may include that if there is not at least one viable chip present in the inkset, a lockup may be programmed to occur, but I myself have not seen this.....( yet).
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Old Jun 10, 2006, 4:24 AM   #39
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EDIT: URK - just saw headphone's last post after sending this one.
Beautiful blue sky outside (supposed to be the best weekend this year in the UK) & we're inside at the PC trying to defeat corporate greed... sad, isn't it
:G

Just as a little bit of further info. I messed about with the registry settings suggested in a previous post. At the moment I have one cart (magenta) flagged & flashing as running low. In the registry settings I could see that this cart had a value of 10. I changed this to 100 and the ink level graphic bar went to the top but... it was still flagged as running low. And when I reset everything and the PC queried the printer everything was back as before. :sad:

A previous post seems to suggest the chips can be reset by some combination of power on / offs? But I can't seem to find it, my magenta is still flashing away, even though it's been re-filled
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Old Jun 10, 2006, 5:33 AM   #40
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Ok...

I have a suggestion about how to proceed on this because looking back it's easy to let this whole thing run away with itself and become stampede of guesswork so I suggest we enjoy the sun, chill out for a few days and concentrate on the facts.

To that end can I recommend that anyone with a chipped Canon printer that intendes to, or already does, refill their cartridges keeps an eye on their ink levels, any status/error messages and tries out the suggestions I had for refilling their cartridges (ie: open cover, wait for exchange position, pull out power cord/unplug printer, complete refill routine, replace cart(s), reconnect/plug in printer).

At some point I am expecting a set of completely empty Canon cartridges from a recycling firm contact and I'll try these out in a fresh Canon printer I have (well I've got a few) and I'll do some empirical research myself.


Basically though, if anyone hits problems what we really need is microscopic, anal retentive type detail about what they did, didn't do, printer types, chip state, power state, etc... and then we should be able to get an accurate picture of what is happening.


So, to get the ball rolling here's my setup..
  1. iP4200 [low]
    - All cartridges = empty
    - CIS home made system installed using Canon OEM carts.
    - cartridges have not been removed (with power on) since last cart marked as empty
    - ink levels all show as disabled
    - no longer see any red LED indicators during startup
    - printer left on auto-power off/on
    - still working

    [/*]
  2. iP4200 [high]
    - PCI-8BK & PCI-8C still show as usable
    - PGI-5, PCI-8Y & PCI-8M all show as empty
    - CIS home made system (first version) using Canon OEM carts
    - cartridges haven't been removed since installation
    - ink levels disabled on Magenta, Pigment Black and Yellow
    - LED indicators only on non-"empty" carts
    - printer left on auto-power off/on
    - still working[/*]
As I said I'll add another iP4200 to the mix shortly with all refilled cartridges that are "empty" according to their chips. I'll then try some of the things I've suggested to see if they reset the theoretic "lock" and see how I go from there.


Like I said though.. it's a beatiful day and I'll be damned if I let Canon waste it... patience is going to be key here.. So back to it on Monday with a fresh mind..

Cheers all

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