Go Back   Steve's Digicams Forums > Printers > Photo Inkjet

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Mar 12, 2006, 12:03 PM   #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 11
Default

Hi all, This is my first post on this great forum.

I wanted to buy a IP 5200, but after reading about the chip issues on the carts, I decided to hold off.

Question: Why is it so hard to make a Chip Resetter for Canon products. Will it ever be done?

Bushmaster
bushmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old Mar 12, 2006, 1:09 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
pagerboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 483
Default

What is a chip resetter?
pagerboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 12, 2006, 3:07 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 735
Default

pagerboy wrote:
Quote:
What is a chip resetter?
The new canon printers are chipped to keep track of ink use. When you pull the tank, it remembers there and abouts on how full this is. Many printers employ this system. A chip resetter sets the count to 0 so in theory they can be refilled.
zakezuke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 12, 2006, 8:23 PM   #4
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 11
Default

Gee Zakezuke I didn't know that the carts could onlybe refilled in theory, I thought they really could be refilled.

I thought, also, that the chips make it impossible to use aftermarket inkcartridges.

I think now,I'm going to go ahead and buy my Canon Pixma IP 5200.

Thanks, I appreciate your help.

Bushmaster
bushmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 12, 2006, 9:17 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 139
Default

To bushmaster,

Please don't read too much into what Zakezuke said. He spoke the truth but I fear you are missing the truth
in what he said.

The new Canon chips are the real deal--I am guessing protected by high end incription so they are not easy to crack---unlike previous more feeble attempts by Epson, HP, and Lexmark--where the chip was easier to crack, reset, or fool.

The ip5200 is very similar to its predecesor---the ip5000 which was non chipped. Both are the high end five color general purpose Canon printers.--anything higher in the Canon line and you get into six, 8, and even 10 color speciality printers really made for photoprinting only.

The only two advantages the ip5200 has over the ip5000--at least in my miniscule mind--is acess to the possibly slightly better chromalife 100 ink Canon has not made backwards available to earlier printers and the fact the new chips count nozzle fires and hence is slightly better in detecting the point at which an OEM cartridge is depleted than ealier optical means.---but bottom line (1) Try to print with a totally depleted cartridge delivering no ink to the print head means no cooling ink bubble exists and the printhead can be damaged. (2) Optical low ink detection used in a non-chipped Canon often triggers when much usable ink remains in the sponge--as much as 25% of the OEM ink is wasted.

But until a chip resetter can be developed---a if and when question---you suffer some horrible disadvatages.
(a) It costs you exactly $2.25 more for a Canon OEM cartridge. (b) You totally LOSE the ability to use dirt cheap third party prefilled cartridges in a chipped Canon. And bottom line that option can save you up to 7x over OEM with little or no quality loss---but if they can't clone the chip and no chip on the cartridge means the printer will not use that third party cartridge in a chipped Canon printer. (c) You can refill a Canon chipped cartridge--but you must use a Canon OEM blank--navigate numerous nag screens threatening printer damage and warranty voiding, you lose any and all advanages of chromalife 100 inks, and lose all ink monitoring. Refilling is just plain harder in a chipped Canon than a non-chipped one.--and options are fewer.

Until its impossible to get a non-chipped Canon---plenty are still on ebay---I see no reason for any rational person to buy a chipped Canon unless they plan to use Canon Oem cartridges only.--or until the chips are actually cracked.
Osage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 12, 2006, 9:45 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 735
Default

Osage wrote:
Quote:
To bushmaster,

Please don't read too much into what Zakezuke said. He spoke the truth but I fear you are missing the truth
in what he said.

The new Canon chips are the real deal--I am guessing protected by high end incription so they are not easy to crack---unlike previous more feeble attempts by Epson, HP, and Lexmark--where the chip was easier to crack, reset, or fool.

Actually the truth of what I said was making no reference to canon, epson, or HP... that simply put a chip reseter resets a chip. I wasn't saying canon tanks can be refilled in theory, the cli-8 pgi-5 can be refilled as easily as prior generations. Someone asked what a chip resetter was, which I answered simply a thingie to reset the chips on cartriages (canon, hp, epson, whoever) so they can in theory (not all cartridges can be refilled with ease, or successfully) be refilled (and used).

While I don't have the technical reasons why Canon chips in the cli-8 or PGI-5 can be refilled, Osage's assumption that there could be a technical reason why no chipresetter presently exists could be valid. After all, from what i've read the US printers can't accept cartridges from Japan (bci-7e) by default, a very silly limitation.


zakezuke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 2006, 3:00 AM   #7
Member
 
headphonesman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 82
Default

Osage/Zakezuke

I have a Canon 5200. I have 2 sets of chipped carts. One set is intact, the other set has been modified for re-fill.

The modification and refill was done when they were half empty . Whilst modification and re-fill was taking place the Intact set was installed to prevent dry-out.

I had not (and still have not), received any low ink or empty warnings or warranty breech warnings.

My intention is to keep the re-fill carts "topped -up" before any warnings occur.

My question is this:- In the absence of a chip re-setter and/or compatable carts/ink is there any advantage or disadvantage (ignoring the quality of re-fill ink) in what I am doing.?

I have seen it said that the chip counts the firings of the nozzle and acts accordingly.....if that is so then I should see a low ink /empty warning at some time even though the cart is full?. Does the optical prism still have a part to play ?

We have all had a cart in the past that has malfunctioned and emptied itself in a very short time ....where would be the protection of the head lie then .? with the optical alone ? the "counting" chip would not know..........

I would welcome your opinions , but appreciate that the knowledge base is still in its early days.


headphonesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 2006, 3:44 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 735
Default

headphonesman wrote:
Quote:
My intention is to keep the re-fill carts "topped -up" before any warnings occur. My question is this:- In the absence of a chip re-setter and/or compatable carts/ink is there any advantage or disadvantage (ignoring the quality of re-fill ink) in what I am doing.?
You have entered the undocumented zone. Simply put... people like your self are going to have to experiment and report on it. I "thought" that the cartridge chip would notice the fact that it "should" be by all rights empty and start giving you warnings, but it's possible that it may not trigger the warning till the prism becomes activated. But I simply do not know.


Quote:
We have all had a cart in the past that has malfunctioned and emptied itself in a very short time ....where would be the protection of the head lie then .? with the optical alone ? the "counting" chip would not know..........
In the past, there was a diaper that would absorb the ink, and a simple counter that would trip when the counter reached a certain point. In the past there was no head warning that I was aware of aside from printing badly or not at all. Near as i'm aware there was really no optical sensor for the diaper, only a counter. This would be stored in the printer's non-volitile memory... and should be manually resetable. While I don't know this for a fact, I suspect that ink dumped by a malfuctioning cartridge would not be counted.


Quote:
My intention is to keep the re-fill carts "topped -up" before any warnings occur.
Let us know how well this works.

zakezuke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 2006, 9:29 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 139
Default

To headphonesman,

I have to agree with everything zakezuke said.

But I would like to make some additional points.

(1) As zakezuke said, you are somewhat in undocumented territory. So to a certain extent you must rely on either on those refilling unchipped canons longer than you.----or you might ask some of these questions directly of Canon tech support--especially if you don't tip them to the fact you are refilling, you might get lucky and find a rep who is both knowledgable and forthcoming---and I certainly think that question of a leaking cartridge possibly screwing up the nozzle counts of a chiped cartridge is especially important.

(2) It was somewhat established on another forum that a OEM Canon BCI-6 cartridge comes with 14 ml of canon ink when new---and close to half of that ink is in the reserve tank and the other half is in the sponge section of the cartridge. At point of the low ink warning, only 3.5 ml of ink remains and all of that is located in the sponge side of the cartridge--as the reserve tank emptied quite some time before the low ink warning triggered.--not only does that mean that only 75% of ink is actually used, it also begs some questions worth asking---and questions I hope some can shed some light on.

But that question could be stated as follows----as the cartridge is going through the process of being used,
is the ink from both sides of the cartridge used equally----or is the reserve side depleted faster than than the sponge side???---a surface answer is always yes because we know the reserve side has lost 7 ml and the sponge side only 3.5 ml at low ink----so a deeper question might be---when the reserve tank first empties, does the sponge side still have its full 7 ml? If the latter question is close to a yes, we know your half empty point in the reserve tank when you did the cartridge swap occured after only 25% of the ink was used. If the answer is closer to a no, you are far closer to 50% of the ink already used at the point you made the cartridge swap.

Its also been established on another forum the the CLI-8 cartridges only contain 13 ml of OEM ink. But it is my understanding that the chip--which counts noozle fires as indicator of low ink--is more accurate--and presumably a CLI-8 will have less than 3.5 ml in the sponge side before the chip warns of low ink.

But what I have here is partly hard fact and partly speculation---but I will try to post numbers on my BCI-6 cartridges when I next refill a cartridge that has reached low ink--and make notes and guesses if I refill when some ink is still in the reserve tank.

But headphonesman may already have the answer if he noted how much ink he added to the cartridges when they were pulled at the reserve tank half empty point---was it closer to 7 ml or closer to 3.5 ml?
Osage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 14, 2006, 5:07 AM   #10
Member
 
headphonesman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 82
Default

to Zakezuke/Osage and all other interested parties !

Thank you both foryour replies and opinions and best way forward. I am now happy in the knowledge that I am not alone in being bemused and intrigued by what these Canon chipped carts really are (and are not) doing, (and what they are capable of doing !)

I have just compared a BCI 6 alongside a CLI 8 . Overall the outside dimensions are the same .......except the CLI 8 reserve is slightly smaller (on the inner ) caused by a thicker section wall on the exterior and the corner taken off to accomodate the chip.

The CLI 8 also has a protruding location lug at the reserve end..this prevents it being used with a BCI 6 machine (and vice versa). I asked Canon before I bought the 5200 whether the carts were interchangeable (either way) and was briefly told "no they are not"...(full stop).

The optical prism aspect "appears" to have been retained on the base of the cart near the location lug.

The chip is comprised of 4 metal strips these form an electrical circuit when the cart is put in the proper slot and lights up with a nice pleasingred fluorescent glow,( not sure what happens if you put in the wrong slot). To get the lights to look good you have to use a chipped cart that has not been told its empty (by the nozzle fires or by the optical ?.....who knows?........I think this is what the problem hinges on ?

I (like other re-fillers) have not been in the habit of measuring the amount of refill, preferring to top up carts before they get too low (6`s and 8`s). My memory of the refill was that one tank reserve was 2/3 rds empty and 3 others were half to 2/3rds full. No warnings had been received of either low or empty on any tank.
Quote:
But it is my understanding that the chip--which counts noozle fires as indicator of low ink--is more accurate--
This capability the chip is supposed to have ...(my understanding as well)....where did it originate ? where is the valid source of the information ?.....I believe the chip does play a part in the ink usage level.....butAFTER an optical trigger.. my current procedure is based on this being true (fingers crossed!)

I havewritten to Canon via their Help desk on various matters before and have been less than impressed on their (short direct) answers in which they only address the bits they like to answer......I am not happy they would even understand the question, in this case. So I wont be contacting Canon

Perhaps this discussion will prompt a person with extensive knowledge to come to the fore. One thing is sure..............The second set of Canon carts I bought were £52 GBP...thats 50% of the (discount) purchase price of the printer, (30% of the high street price.) That amount of money for ink is obscene !!!!!!!. I will not buy any more!!!!...........

I will let this group know of developments........but I think someone will get there before me, the 5200 is kept as the "best" printer daily printing is done with the (unchipped thankfully), IP4000


headphonesman is offline   Reply With Quote
0
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 3:17 PM.




SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 RC 2