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Old Jun 24, 2006, 10:28 PM   #11
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Good investigating Webslinger.

Canon is dead wrong on this, especially since proper duplex text printing occurs on earlier models as you state.

If customer service is important toCanon then they should incorporate a setting choice or revert back to using black ink only for duplexing of monochrome text only documents.
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Old Jun 25, 2006, 3:10 AM   #12
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Stratman wrote:
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Good investigating Webslinger.

Canon is dead wrong on this, especially since proper duplex text printing occurs on earlier models as you state.

If customer service is important toCanon then they should incorporate a setting choice or revert back to using black ink only for duplexing of monochrome text only documents.
There are lots of features I'd like them to add to the driver. But to be honest, I don't use canon's auto duplex feature. It's too slow. I would use their manual duplex feature but as you've said it employs a compsite black for it's printing. So I just using microsofts dialog box for duplexing. This appears when ever you print from any word processing/desktop publishing application worth it's salt, for all else you can print odds and evens.

While it would be nice for Canon to add this feature... there is at least a way around it, and it's so much faster than auto duplex.

Now, what "i'd" enjoy is object oriented printing. I would enjoy being able to select the pigment black for text and the dyeblack for images.

But as far as being dead wrong, I have to say they design their products for average joes. The big black has a print range of about 500pages @ 5% yield. The trays can hold about 150pages or so, so double that would be 300. This is hitting the point that you do run the risk of running out of ink even if you start with a full cartridge if you are printing above 5% yield. So the use of the other tanks not only decreases the drytime, but extends your print range by a fair bit, enough so you don't have to worry about running out of ink for a single large job.

I wouldn't say they are dead wrong, I would say they are designing a turn key product.
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Old Jun 25, 2006, 7:56 AM   #13
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That's fine that you don't use the auto duplexing feature; others do.
And it's an advertised feature. I use it; I don't want to flip pages manually.
Duplexing for black text is almost useless on the MP830.

This composite black ink printing while duplexing is a terrible decision, period: the text quality looks brutal (and this, for me, is the biggest problem), and your printer is drinking color ink while duplex text printing.

Futhermore, there are a number of people over at Amazon.com complaining about how this printer drinks ink (and a couple of people also mentioned "greyish", light text quality; what they are probably not aware of is the fact the MP830 uses color ink to produce inferior black text quality while duplexing.)
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Old Jun 25, 2006, 8:43 AM   #14
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zakezuke wrote:
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There are lots of features I'd like them to add to the driver. But to be honest, I don't use canon's auto duplex feature. It's too slow. I would use their manual duplex feature but as you've said it employs a compsite black for it's printing. So I just using microsofts dialog box for duplexing. This appears when ever you print from any word processing/desktop publishing application worth it's salt, for all else you can print odds and evens.

While it would be nice for Canon to add this feature... there is at least a way around it, and it's so much faster than auto duplex.
I used MS Word to open a document, then I went into the printer's properties and chose duplexing from the window that popped up for the MP830 settings.

Prior to that window, I see there is a selection for a "manual duplex" after initially clicking on file/print from Word. It then prompts you to reload the paper you just printed on one side in order to print the other side. Is this what you are talking about? How is this "faster" than auto duplexing via the MP830's controls?

Also, when I print single side monochrome text in the MP830, it appears to be non-mixed black ink. Is this incorrect? Why even have2 different black inkcartridges if they are not to be utilized differently, especially in light of the fact that output quality is adversely affected by the way black is laid out on the page?

I would have to respectfully disagree with your statement concerning a "turnkey" product. Using mixed ink black or single ink black has no bearing on a product being turnkey. Maybe faster speeds can be attained with mixed ink black. Maybe Canon ends up making more money using mixed ink black. But, the ability to use mixed ink vs single ink black does not affect the ease of use of the printer, since there is always a default setting when more than one choice is available.

The PGI-5BK pigment ink cartridge holds a larger volume of ink than the other CLI catridges. Why? What is this ink for? My speculation is that most consumers want fast attractive output as well as low cost of ownership. Unfortunately, with inkjets, you can only have 2 out of 3 if you use OEM ink cartridges. Why would Canon treat consumers as if we are uncaring or incompetent of noticing lesser quality monochrome test outputand higher cost of ownership when printing in duplex mode. Give a choice, then,for the quality of our output and the way consumables are utilized. This is what I meant by "dead wrong".

To be honest, I use my auto-duplexing laser printer for most printing tasks while reserving the MP830 for "must have" color jobs. Hopefully this keeps my cost of ownership to a more reasonable level.
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Old Jun 25, 2006, 3:26 PM   #15
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I'd be interested to see how this pans out and I'll be certain to check how well the MP500 works in this respect as I believe it uses much the same unit as the MP830 for its printer.

I'm not going to comment on Canon's attitude towards their customers as I think my views are now pretty well known.

But I do agree that if the MP780-was working well then there's no reason for the newer models to be producing poorer results at comparable levels.

However the arguement about composite black is somewhat hollow as the MP780 and I believe pretty much all the Pixma printers with auto-duplex features use this technique. The reason is simple.. The dyebase inks are faster drying which means there's no extended waiting time to avoid smudging that use of the pigment inks would run a higher risk of.

So, whilst I don't agree with Canons attitude to your queries I do wonder if the problem is actually caused by some other factor such as increased printing speed, paper used, etc...
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Old Jun 25, 2006, 5:28 PM   #16
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You are correct: the MP780 duplexs black text in the same manner. I made a mistake and am in the process of editing my posts here and elsewhere.

However, why can I print text on one side, flip the page over manually, print text on the other side, and not experience any issue with ink showing through to the other side? The text quality looks vastly superior when I do this instead of duplexing (I do not experience any issues).

It shouldn't be that difficult to allow a printer driver option to use the pigmented black ink with a longer drying time if that's what the customer would prefer, instead of inflicting poor text quality produced by color inks when duplex black text printing.
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Old Jun 27, 2006, 12:33 PM   #17
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My MP780 and my friend's MP830 have the same problem. I sent an email to Canon supportby enclosinga google search link.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...duplex+problem

I'm not sure if we all send requests to Canon would make them work faster, but there is really no reason of not doing it. Below is the link to send a quick email to canon:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...ontactCanonAct

I believe this can be fixed by a driver/firmware update.
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Old Jun 28, 2006, 5:11 AM   #18
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kennethxu wrote:
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My MP780 and my friend's MP830 have the same problem.
Hold up a second here... If your MP780 is showing the same symptoms I think you need to start thinking of other possible vectors here..

I have iP4000's, iP4200's and had the MP750 (till it died) and had no problems at all with the automatic duplexing using standard drivers. The iP4000 and MP750 are the exact same printer unit so with 3 printers showing the same results at normal speed it's no a fluke.. The iP4200's are chipped versions which share the MP500 printer (I'm guessing on this to be completely honest) and again I've seen no problems with auto-duplexing.

For one thing I'm noticing you're wanting this to work at "fast" mode which is going to give you poorer results regardless and as noted elsewhere the ink has to dry so there's going to be a compromise somewhere in terms of ink output, quality, etc... to meet the "fast" requirements.

All in all I'd seriously recommend you take a look at quality across each of the print speeds, adjust drying times, and the custom settings (diffusion, etc..). I'd also look for some other paper and try it with various brands.


I can't really comment on the actual performance of the MP830 though based on any personal experience as I simply haven't had the time or resources to purchase and experiment with one so take this all with a huge pinch of salt.
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Old Jun 28, 2006, 8:48 AM   #19
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It's not just fast mode that's affected on the MP830 and the (draft mode) MP780; it's all print modes. And the text that is produced is vastly inferior with duplexing enabled. I have access to MP780 as well, so that's why I can confirm the MP780 has the same problem; I've tested this duplexing problem on it.


I find it suprising that your MP750 wasn't displaying the same results; it should be using composite black (black made from color inks) when duplexing is enabled on standard. Test with duplexing off and then on. Actually, I've also been told by Canon tech support the 750, 760, and 780 all use composite black when duplexing, so I suggest you check again. Print text with duplexing on and then off. The results with duplexing off will look much darker and crisper.
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Old Jun 28, 2006, 9:54 AM   #20
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For the sake of simplicity, let's say you are satisfied with the text output when auto-duplexing. The question remains why does Canon utilize color catridges (even the non-pigment one)to create black when thereare black ink cartridges available? Why waste my color ink for black text?

Why have black ink cartridges at all when you can composite black?

I use my MP830 for color output almost exclusively while using a monochrome laser printer for text output. The reason is I save money by reserving the MP830 for color output. Now, if I were to use the MP830 for auto-duplex output, I will spend even more money than I originally expected. Alas, I realize that black is composited in a variety of non-duplex print jobs I do as well.

Using color ink to make black when there are TWO black ink cartridges just so they can brag about speed, and sell more color cartridges, is disingenuous and an egregious compromise.
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