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Old Jun 28, 2006, 10:02 AM   #21
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"The question remains why does Canon utilize color catridges (even the non-pigment one)to create black when thereare black ink cartridges available? Why waste my color ink for black text?"

Canon's response to this is that pigmented black ink will smear, bleed, or show through to the other side when duplex printing. Contrary to Canon's claim, I am not experiencing any issues when printing black text on standard on one side of cheap Britex Premier Multiusage paper (20 lb 92 bright . . . I paid less than a dollar for 500 sheets on sale), flipping the page over manually, and printing the other side again on standard. So I call nonsense on Canon's claim, and strongly suggest Canon needs to issue a new driver. Again, it shouldn't be that difficult to allow a printer driver option to use the pigmented black ink with a longer drying time if that's what the customer would prefer, instead of inflicting poor text quality produced by color inks when duplex black text printing.
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Old Jun 28, 2006, 11:25 AM   #22
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Webslinger wrote:
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"The question remains why does Canon utilize color catridges (even the non-pigment one)to create black when thereare black ink cartridges available? Why waste my color ink for black text?"

Canon's response to this is that pigmented black ink will smear, bleed, or show through to the other side when duplex printing. Contrary to Canon's claim, I am not experiencing any issues when printing black text on standard on one side of cheap Britex Premier Multiusage paper (20 lb 92 bright . . .
With the best will in the world, just because you haven't experienced it with just one paper is not going to be indicative of a test against numerous other papers. Until you actually test your theory properly with a variety of papers including weights, colours, coating, etc... I don't see how you can cite that it's not a problem.. It's not a problem, (allegedly) for you but that doesn't mean it won't hit a significant percentage of other "cheap" or "standard" papers.

Bottom line, I doubt very much that Canon have done this deliberately to reduce quality... To repeat it's going to be a trade off between speed, reliability and quality... If anything I've got to ask why the heck they've used colours for the black when they have a perfectly good dybase black cartridge in the MP830 already and could use that..
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Old Jun 28, 2006, 11:40 AM   #23
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Regardless of whether I've tested using tons of different papers (and I admit I haven't), again, it shouldn't be that difficult to allow a printer driver option to use the pigmented black ink with a longer drying time if that's what the customer would prefer, instead of inflicting poor text quality produced by color inks when duplex black text printing. The option should be made available. Pigmented black ink may smear or bleed through to the other side on some papers, but it certainly doesn't do so on all papers.

I'm not alleging anything. It's a fact; I have the cheap Britex paper right in front of me (it's not expensive stuff). I've you have the "best will", then why are you suggesting I'm lying? I have two MP830s in my household and a MP780 (which I'm getting rid of).

"Bottom line, I doubt very much that Canon have done this deliberately to reduce quality."

I doubt they've done this deliberately to reduce quality either, but the cynical side of me wonders if Canon has not offered the option to use black pigmented ink when duplexing so that the customer has to buy colour ink more frequently.

What's really annoying is that even if you just use manual duplexing (have duplex selected in the driver and have "automatic" unchecked), this issue still raises its ugly head. Doesn't matter if you're manual duplexing or using automatic duplexing.

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Old Jun 28, 2006, 5:03 PM   #24
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My question of "why" was more for highlighting the obvious avoidance by Canon to use at least ONE of its TWO black cartridges for monochrome test output while auto-duplexing. Sure, the pigment based black may smear (not on any paper I've tried yet, but that's a small sampling to be sure), but the dye-based black is "dye-based" like the color inks. It's like saying "no" doesn't mean "no". Quit using up my color inks when there is a perfectly good black ink cartridge. Or, at least, give "power users" the opportunity to choose something besides default composite black.

BTW, I was satisfied with the composite black output when auto-duplexing in Fine and Standard modes, and I considered the Fast mode to be a crappy draft mode for quick looks or printouts that are very casual. Even so, I deplore Canon's waste of color ink to make black when I already paid for perfectly good black ink cartridges. For me, this is an economics and principles disagreement.
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Old Jun 28, 2006, 5:07 PM   #25
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I am neither satisified with the text quality while duplexing nor the composite black being used (one is related to the other), and the fact that setting the driver to manual duplex still makes the MP830 use composite black annoys me even more. Undoubtedly, this makes the consumer pay more money than he or she would otherwise, and the added bonus is that the text quality looks inferior as a result.

I do feel, in most other respects, the MP830 is a nice printer--but this duplexing issue really mars the printer's performance and cost of operation.
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Old Jun 30, 2006, 1:25 AM   #26
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Are there any othertimes when composite-ink black is used?

For instance, what ink(s) are used to make black when copying a document in black and white or when printing on a CD using greyscale in CD-Label Print?
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Old Jun 30, 2006, 1:26 AM   #27
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accidental repost deleted
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Old Jun 30, 2006, 8:05 AM   #28
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I haven't tested the copying feature that fully. However, I am of the opinion greyscale always uses colour ink. Grey can't be produced with just black anyway, I think. The printer doesn't have the ability to create anything other than black with just black ink, so using colour and black ink when printing greyscale is considered normal. I am not positive that what I'm typing here is 100% accurate, but from my understanding, this is the general idea with greyscale printing. I've certainly read a few posts of people complaining of colour ink dropping when greyscale printing on the MP780.
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Old Jun 30, 2006, 9:35 AM   #29
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Just a thought on this issue from a different perspective...

One of the reasons the printer will be using colour inks for what may appear to be non-colour jobs is that the printer needs to be firing the nozzles on all inks to keep them clear of blockages... It's a lot cheaper to keep things working this way instead of having to run cleaning cycles so it's hardly a profiteering measure.

Also I'm pretty sure that greyscale is difficult to achieve if using purely black ink. You may want to check that.

Overall though I can't help but think that if anyone really wants lots of black and white or greyscale that a good quality laser would be a smarter move.


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Old Jun 30, 2006, 10:01 AM   #30
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"One of the reasons the printer will be using colour inks for what may appear to be non-colour jobs is that the printer needs to be firing the nozzles on all inks to keep them clear of blockages... It's a lot cheaper to keep things working this way instead of having to run cleaning cycles so it's hardly a profiteering measure."

From my understanding, the printer can't produce grey by simply using less black ink, so colour ink would be required. "Even with the grayscale option enable in the printing preference, the printer will still use a composite of the color cartridges to simulate grayscale tones, mostly the blue ink will be used in neutral gray." --from someone's post about the MP780

I'm not really sure how I feel about this. On one hand, it's annoying. On the other hand, the printer may simply be incapable of producing grayscale without using colour.

Someone elsewhere believes the MP780 can use just black ink when greyscale printing using third party Linux drivers (and those drivers cost extra money to use). But I haven't been able to confirm this, since I don't use Linux (nor am I interested in spending extra money to use Linux drivers). I am somewhat skeptical of this claim as well.

But duplex black text printing is another matter, entirely. If Canon wanted to use cleaning as an excuse to use composite black, then why not use it all the time, even when printing black text in simplex? Oh right, because composite black text looks terrible, and Canon wouldn't need to include PGI-5BK . . .

"Overall though I can't help but think that if anyone really wants lots of black and white or greyscale that a good quality laser would be a smarter move."

Undoubtedly lasers are better for black text. However, it's not as though Canon isn't advertising "laser-like text quality" with it's multifunction inkjets--except, of course, Canon doesn't add "but only when simplex printing".

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