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Old Aug 27, 2004, 8:24 AM   #51
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fabiod-you didn't cause this, don't worry about that,

we should apologize for hijacking your thread..

i'm sorry

(anyone else?)

Vito
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Old Aug 27, 2004, 9:00 AM   #52
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As vito mentioned, fabiod, I also apologize that I contributed at all to your thread being hijacked like that.

(However, there is no question - the bird is a Great Egret - tsiya was correct on that point. It would still be nice to see your additional photographs.)
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Old Aug 27, 2004, 9:06 AM   #53
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The green lores show that it is in breeding season. The green will return to yellow at the end of the season.
That is an oversimplification – at least for the egrets down this way. Most of the egrets don't develop the green any time in the year, and the few that get dark green like the one in faboid's shot decrease to a lesser green area but stay green all year. They do sometimes show some yellow off season, but the green stays.

I have been feeding a great egret, snowy egret and great heron for over two years. The great egret has a very dark green for this area – I see few that turn green and even fewer that turn that dark. The green decreases in cycles but is always green – it never turns to yellow. I have a bird sanctuary island behind my house and get to see hundreds on a regular basis.

This picture is about two years old with the green in full bloom:


I just grabbed this one of the same bird. It is about as small as the green gets before it starts expanding again:


And this shows it is not a random egret. This one has become pretty comfortable around me. And its behavior is sufficient to always identify it.



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Old Aug 27, 2004, 9:13 AM   #54
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looks like these guys invite themselves in
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Old Aug 27, 2004, 11:00 AM   #55
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Fabio,

Checked out your web site. You have some great photos of birds that are considerably less often photographed than the Great Egret that you posted.

Maybe you could post the tanager pictures? Like the Chestnut-backed Tanager [Tangara preciosa, the ones at feeder eating oranges etc] and the Blue-and-yellow Tanager [Thraupis bonariensis, the one by itself, perched on an branch and with a very descriptive name indeed]. Very few photos of those birds are available in the Web.

Dalcio
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Old Aug 27, 2004, 11:03 AM   #56
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I wish people would keep their religious beliefs out of these discussions.
It is not relevant and only leads us further away from the topic at hand.

Dalcio
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Old Aug 27, 2004, 11:09 AM   #57
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Dacol wrote:
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Fabio,

Checked out your web site. You have some great photos of birds that are considerably less often photographed than the Great Egret that you posted.

Maybe you could post the tanager pictures? Like the Chestnut-backed Tanager [Tangara preciosa, the ones at feeder eating oranges etc] and the Blue-and-yellow Tanager [Thraupis bonariensis, the one by itself, perched on an branch and with a very descriptive name indeed]. Very few photos of those birds are availaible in the Web.

Dalcio
It will be my pleasure Dalcio :-). I will do it in a moment in another thread.

Fabio.
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Old Aug 27, 2004, 11:19 AM   #58
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[I hope that tsiya is still out there to read this, or I've just wasted about 3 hours writing this.]
Oh my. Where do I begin?

Both the Immature Snowy egret and Greater egrets have green lores and slightly black beaks (they go full black when they get older, just as tsiya's picture showed.) On the surface, using this picture alone (I feel) it could be either. So lets do some more research!

Time of year is a killer. If this was taken recently and in the US, it is too late in the year for the immature snowy to still be looking like that (by almost a month.) But it is also late in the year for the Greater Egrets to still be in breeding plumage (based on Sibley's book, both transition away from breeding plumage in July.) Maybe the schedule is different in Brazil? Maybe the schedule is different in Florida for tsiya?

Immature Snowy Egrets have a partially black beak, not a full black one. So that isn't good enough without more details.
Both Imm Snowy and Greater Egrets have green lore. So that isn't good enough.
Tsiya suggested that beak size (Length? Width?) is also important. My books say nothing on the comparative sizes of the beaks, so I can't say anything in that area.

My id (and the above comments) are based on "The Sibley Guide to Birds". I generally trust that book, it's way more right than I am with just my own brain. Maybe it's wrong in this situation? I'll have to check my other books. Kaufman's book shows a head shot of a Snowy with the green lore (Sibley's seems to be yellow, but it's hard to tell in the single full body picture.) In Peterson's "Eastern Birds" book, it also shows the green, but not going out onto the bill lore (just around the eye) and not as brightly green.

I will leave it up to that. With my new knowledge, I think it's more likely to be a Greater Egret (mostly due to the fact that the lower bill seems to have absolutely no black. The immature Snowy has a mix of yellow and black, but everywhere I have looked it has some on the lower & upper bills.) But the simple reasons given in the thread (the green lore and that it doesn't have a "black beak" are not enough to id this bird.)

Unfortunately I don't have the National Geographic field guide to birds. That is really supposed to be the definitive guide for serious birders Maybe I'll look at one over the weekend….

A slight digression.. That link that tsiya gave for bird info is nice (http://bdi.org/Birdkey/BirdFrameset.cfm) and complements the Cornell site well. It does something that I've always wanted in an online site. It lets you pick a group/family and it displays all the birds in that group (like "egret" or "Swallow".) This makes it much easier to go back and forth between multiple birds. It doesn't have a lot of detail about the actual birds (just some pictures) but it links to the www.natureserve.com, which is amazing. I've book marked both sites.

I appreciate all the kind works from the regulars, stepping up to my defense. I'm a good photographer and a decent birder but I'm certainly no expert. I'm glad you all think of me so highly, I do my best to be helpful.

But on to the serious aspect of this thread. Tsiya, have you been reading this site much before posting? I'm not talking about the quality of your pictures (they are very good), I'm talking about attitude. We are a generally a courteous, friendly bunch of people who know something about photography. In this section it's a group who like to take wildlife pictures (lately mostly birds) and share them. Based on the quality of your work, I bet your knowledge on photography and your pictures would be greatly appreciated. But your attitude is not.

Your comment "I know I am often too blunt in My speech, I never go out to offend, however." In your second post of the thread was right on the money. I actually wasn't offended by your correction of my id (I think it was blunt, but not rude.) It would probably behoove you to not be so blunt. Geoffs correction, while saying the same thing, was much politer. The old saying "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" is correct.

Have you ever looked at the forums on www.depreview.com? If no, I'd suggest you do. Just go into the Canon 10D's forum, look for a long thread and read it a bit. Look at the attitude there. People insult each other, they it slips off the facts an into person attacks. It's a place I will never post because I don't like the attitude (I read it some because they are often very knowledgeable… more so then here.)

But now as I read through the thread I have several comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiya
I don't go looking for argument, but best You do some more research.
I think this is the problem from the start. There was no argument. I don't know why you assumed this was one. I talk… I discuss… I exchange ideas. (ok, that sounded a bit… wimpy didn't it?) Where I come from an argument assumes a hostile attitude. Interestingly enough, a quick look at the dictionary doesn't show that meaning, though. Maybe you didn't mean "argument" like (to me) it seems you did? But when I see the attitude expressed in this thread, if an "argument" occurred over this ID, I think it would have included lots of yelling and screaming… something that I certainly dislike.

You thought one thing, I thought another. This is the basis for a discussion, to me. It was never intended to be "an argument" by me. And I have to say, I'm not sure you actually took it in that direction because it never was allowed to be. An argument takes two sides and my side was never expressed (because, like geoffs suggested, I was sleeping.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiya
Only credit I take is being lucky enough to be stuck in the middle of Paradise, and having 3 fine cameras.
For birding, you certainly are stuck in paradise. The birds are very diverse and in herons and egrets many are very tame. You can get pictures easily there that I have to fight for. But I enjoy the fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiya
I have no reputation around here, that will take time. I accept apologies graciously, but no way I will say I erred, unless I did.
Several things. First, from the direction this thread is going, your reputation won't be very high. Hopefully you can recover it, 'cause clearly you know how to photograph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiya
Let Eric speak for Himself, I will share anything I know with Him, if He will do the same.. Can an agreement be built on this? I hope so!
I will speak for myself, but I also have to work and sleep. Wow, a lot of posts have built up after I came here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiya
There are about 200 images in My Gallery, maybe a hundreth of what is in My files. Every couple of days, I dump several GB, just because there is no chance I will ever get around to doing anything with it.
I have a similar problem. To many pictures, to little time. I don't get to take that many a day, I have a day job that gets in the way of photography (on the other hand, it lets me buy the gear, so I'm not complaining.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by normcar
Do exactly what you did do, post your url so that everyone can go and see all of your fantastic works of art that are better photos than anyone has ever even considered taking in all of the world.
That is a bit harsh. While tsiya's attitude has come off a bit self-enflated, I don't think there is anything wrong with him putting a link in his posts to his gallery. I wish the font were a bit smaller and not bright green, but that is presentation. I don't believe he has expressed this attitude (I can see where you could have read that into this attitude, but I don't believe he has actually expressed it. Maybe I've forgotten it in all the back and forth and my writing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiya
And, where do You live, Little Friend, that You are so careful to conceal!
It doesn't matter if he doesn't say where he lives. Really. For all we know, you are an alien living on mars. Or I'm a secret agent for the Russians or Chinese living an Antarctica. Now, he has said in other posts that he lives in Canada (he said what province, but I forget.) But the main point is this; Normcar not saying where he's from truly has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. Why even bring it up? From everything I've read on the internet (and I've been on it for.. 15+ years, when it was just usenet and you use uucp to forward mail) this is the classic start of an attack thread. This has no place on this form, both in attitude and style. (heck, I think it has no place in reasonable discourse anywhere, but clearly that is wrong if you just look around the net a bit.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiya
Why the Hell is Erics credibility so imporatnt to You?
Because standing up for friend is what friends do. He feels that a friend was insulted/attacked verbally. Now I think he was wrong, but I'm flattered that he did it. Very, actually. And while misplaced, I appreciate it. Thanks… but do it a bit more calmly and with less inflammatory tone/words, ok?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiya
I still have not heard fromj Eric, have no expectation I ever will.
Ok, now you've insulted me. You don't even know me and you insult me by thinking I won't comment? Seriously, would you say that in public in front of my face? Would you say that if I were an ex-Navy Seal at 6'5" and all muscle? (I'm not) I'd like to think you wouldn't, because you'd know it was insulting and you'd risk getting stomped on (maybe you could defend yourself? Who cares, that isn't the point!) Write in forums like you were actually sitting at a table with those people. Better yet, assume they are blind and tone deaf so they can't see your expressions and can't hear the inflection in your voice. That is how I try to write and it keeps me out of situations you've gotten into.

Please, have a little more faith in human nature. If you'd been here awhile you'd know I'd comment. While I don't think I should expect an apology, I'd still like one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Photosbyvito
now, norm isn't mad about wat you said, but the way you said it...
Actually I think he is a bit mad about what he said as well, but I don't think he should be. No, that isn't true. I think he should be a bit (the attitude and tone of tsiya's comments don't fit with this forum) but not to the extent that he is. But Norm is a passionate person, and it gets in the way some times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Photosbyvito
you could've said...."sorry eric, but i'm pretty sure it's a great egret"

maybe you were joking, but it was misunderstood if that was the case...

we...well..i don't want you to *leave...just stop fighting back...[edit](wow...really bad typo there....[edit]

norm....please try to stick up for your friends in ways that doesn't get you stuck in the fight too....lol
I agree with this completely. Every aspect, every word. This should never have grown into what it became. It makes us and stevesforums look bad. BTW, I don't think "you were joking" as vito guessed. But I also think you didn't mean any harm... it's just the way you are. But if you'd read this site for awhile you'd know that the type of attitude(? Overtone? I'm not sure on the right word) you used is not present here. And it's not wanted. If I wanted that, I'd go to dpreview and put on my flame-retardant suit.

I want good pictures, good exchange of info (where I learn) in a polite atmosphere. I don't physically go to places where people behave badly (to my definition of "badly", of course), and I don't go to them online either. Life is too short.

Quote:
Originally Posted by normcar
Well, you just do anything your little heart wishes to do Alabama. And I'll bet that your farts smell like perfume.
I can't decide if I should laugh or cry at this comment. About about the classic Monty Python silliness " I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries." That is one of my favorite lines. (Ok, just trying to inject some humor into anotherwise sad exchange.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiya
If it was not Eric, I sure can't tell, Eric don't seem to say much. <clip>Still have not heard anything from Eric, Oh Well, Goodnight from the Swamp.
no, I don't say much while I'm eating a late dinner, working a 60 hour a week job (not including weekends), relaxing with some reading and going to bed. I do other things than post on this message board. I truly don't know what else to say without getting annoyed/angry and stooping to the level this thread has taken. Look at what time you posted? Almost 1am! While I can be a night bird, I actually planned on getting up at 6am this morning to take warbler pictures. This didn't happen because I did work instead (sigh, the sun is shining and I'm stuck in here responding to this stupid thread instead of working!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiya
The damned poor bird is a Great Egret, and Eric blew too much smoke. About 6:00 A.M. this morning, I will likely have couple of each of the critters in question running around in My yard.l Come on down and ask them what they are! I don't bother with the books first, I get to live with the models, each and every day.
Two things. First, just a comment on attitude. I realize that you're mad now, so I'm not taking this personally. But "Eric blew too much smoke" is just the type of comment and attitude that feeds this type of stupid thread. You could easily have said "I think Eric made the wrong ID". I didn't "blew too much smoke". I made a mistake. There was no "too much" or "smoke" about it.

Second, having the birds outside your door doesn't really matter. If I was surrounded by 30 different warblers it wouldn't teach me to identify them (only tell them apart.) People and books do that. Right now I can drive 10 minutes and see Greater & Snowy egret if I choose. Does it matter that they are in your backyard and for me they are in a national wildlife refuge? No, what matters is knowledge in our heads. I still depend on books because I make mistakes. You trust yourself not to, so you don't look in a book. Truly, I don't care where the knowledge comes from. I can guarantee you that there are people in Florida who live with egrets every day and they can't tell the difference. My neighbor has nesting wrens in their back yard. They see them every day. They don't know what type it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aladyforty
UMMMMM ERrrrrrr, did it really matter what kind of bird it was I came in to make a comment on the photo and we have a argument over the identity of a bird. Come on guys chill out a little.
So true. While I like a discussion about a bird ID mixed in some times, an argument is not needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by normcar
alady, unfortunately the problem here is a psychological human problem and not related to birds.
So very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiya
I got off to a bad start?" What did I ever do, but politely point out a mistake made by the "resident Expert" How should I have handled it, maybe allow everyone to run around in error, while I figured out how to be a diplomat?

In case no one noticed, I was never the one to rush in blindly, and tell everyone else that they were full of shoot. Someone did just that, however, won't mention any names, again.

No problem getting rid of the problem, Folks, the problemj is out of here.

There is no easy way to tell someone they are wrong, unless that person realizes that being wrong is possible.

O.K. Eric, the Damned Bird is an immature Snowy, if that makes You happy. It just does not make You right. Maybe someday You will get lucky and a real bird will land in Beantown.

Goodbye!
Oh, god. How do I respond to this. I think you have gotten annoyed and angry and now you're just lashing out. I can't exactly blame you. But I think you've lashed out at me, so I'm going to defend myself.

First off, I think you intended to be polite back in the beginning, and as you said "I know I am too often blunt in my speech"… but I can say that your word choice made it look (to me, and obviously some others) like you were not being polite. How you should handle it is to correct me. I want you to correct me if I'm wrong. But don't do it by saying: "Eric, all due reapect, You are just flat out wrong on this call.l A Snowy has a dark, blue/black beak, and is less than half this size. I don't go looking for argument, but best You do some more research. Give Me a few, I will show You all the Snowies You ever dreamed of!" It assumes "I was looking for an argument". saying that "I am flat out wrong" while it could be correct (and I think it is) is not a tact way to saying it. You asked if you need to figure out how to be more diplomatic? Yes, I do. But I also think Normcar needs to not leap to attack in my defense. I'm touched, but it wasn't necessary (and the way you did it really doesn't fit this forum.)

If you are suggesting that I was trying to tell people they were "full of shoot" with my Id correction then I am just going to shake my head again. This is a question of attitude. I was not saying that. I was expressing my opinion. This is called discussion. If you take my opinion as attacking you (saying you are full of shoot) then… well… I don't know what to say other than you're interpretation of how other people say things needs to change. Or at least of how I say things. I don't feel I said or implied that, I didn't intend it, and reading it again I don't see that I did. I expressed an opinion and backed it up with what I view as "facts". Those facts might have been applied wrong, or they might be wrong. That is what discussion centers on (well, good interesting ones do. Name calling and personal attacks aren't, to me, discussion.)

If your comment about people realizing they can be wrong was directed at me, as you can see above, that is just clearly wrong. But I think you're angry and not really thinking about what you're typing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiya
O.K. Eric, the Damned Bird is an immature Snowy, if that makes You happy. It just does not make You right. Maybe someday You will get lucky and a real bird will land in Beantown.
Again, you're angry and I don't think you're thinking your statements though. Boston is well within the range of both Snowy and Greater Egrets. I could find them fairly easily here, right now. I could dig around in my pictures and show you one with both in it if you'd like.

Also, this entire thread and your anger in this last post does not, in any way, make me happy. It makes me sad, actually. How did a mistake of an id grow into this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aladyforty
Norm, I am not a christian. I have no religion but I believe in treating others in the same way as you wish to be treated yourself. I have found people who are NOT religious and those who ARE can be just as bad as each other at times. I do think that one word means a lot and that is "sorry". If someone is big enough to say that I think, "well what the heck, give them another chance".

The funny thing with this whole issue is that it ran out of control and poor Eric was not even here to answer. Im sure he would have accepted his mistake quickly and none of this would have turned out as it has and maybe you might have even liked this guy you are so cheesed off with.

I agree he did rub people up the wrong way with his manners but he can always come back and make amends if he wants.

I have found that with the internet there is a fine line you must walk where your manners are concerned. Ive done the wrong thing myself, not meaning to but said sorry straight away and have found that is all it takes.
I so agree with everything that aladyforty said. I don't think everyone realizes that on the net there is nothing but your words. If tsiya had been speaking his inflection could have demonstrated that he wasn't attacking or being hostile. But there is no inflection on the net, and so you have to be much more careful about what you say. I'm going to stay away from the religious side this started to take because… well, I have strong feelings in this way and I'd rather not drag the discussion into that whole mess.

Ok, this clocked in at 3600 words. I'm not even sure I can post that much at one time. I certainly don't have the time to proof read it again. Any weird gaping logic flaws are because I wrote it in sections and my opinion changed on some things as it went along. I went back and added and change a few things, but I really have to get back to work. I've already spent too much time doing this and I will have to make up for it by working instead of sleeping tonight.

If people want to discuss the ID portion of my post or the quality of this photo I'm happy to do so. But only comment on the other parts if you really feel you have to. I'd rather this silly thing just died.

Eric
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Old Aug 27, 2004, 4:44 PM   #59
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Both the Immature Snowy egret and Greater egrets have green lores and slightly black beaks (they go full black when they get older, just as tsiya's picture showed.) On the surface, using this picture alone (I feel) it could be either. So lets do some more research!
The egret in faboid's picture has a yellow beak. No further research is necessary – it is a great egret. They only develop the green when they are mature. Down my way they don't all develop the green even when mature.

I've never seen a snowy egret with any green in the face area or anywhere else. Perhaps you could link a picture or identification site.

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Old Aug 27, 2004, 5:29 PM   #60
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Eric, My Friend {Ihope} , well said, well taken. Won't say more, it usually gets Me into trouble. You ever come this way, We can go chase Critters, I would like that.
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