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Old Aug 2, 2007, 1:41 AM   #11
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bahadir wrote:
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But as always, there are people that transcend their "age" or "time". Some of them may have "changed the history". Ockham, I think, is one of them
That's right!Observing Giotto's paintings, for example, one can hear the footsteps of Renaissace comingat least a century before:!:

In this regard, once I was optimistic enough toset such a connection: Antiquity-Renaissance-EU whose constitution starts witha democracy definionby Thukikides... Ah, were it not for those skin- deep politicians with little intellectual merits!
I have some insight in litterature history and the development of thought, from Thales uptil now.

Never really studied art or music history at any depth. I feel that as limiting. Therefore I appreciate your insights, especially in art history, the more. Luckily litteratur and art often go hand in hand.

Thukydides I know as the first historian not to put some "gods" intervening in the chain of cause and effect.

Giotto I´ll study on the web, if I don´t find him at the library

It is a hopeful thing when people prestigelessly can learn from each other.

Torgny



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Old Aug 2, 2007, 7:01 AM   #12
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I might not have got the thread fully here, but feudal system still exits they are just called CEO's of MD's, etc. and the dark ages refers to the lack of spirituality, I thought, if I remember my studies correctly, Amen......just a thought
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 5:17 PM   #13
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Thanks for the credit, Torgny! Ain't it just great to discuss these matters even under the likeness of this splendid structure??

Well, preferablygo forthe library tosearch from the old masters' books to be able to avoid the"post modern" bandwagon :-)

.................................................. .

Sometimesone's personal history can quite match the general history even fromanimpassable distance: Time! Whatever may or may not be the case for you, that's good humour you make:G




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Old Aug 2, 2007, 6:48 PM   #14
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bahadir wrote:
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Sometimesone's personal history can quite match the general history even fromanimpassable distance: Time! Whatever may or may not be the case for you, that's good humour you make:G
Yes, György Lukács, the socialist litterature theoretician and critic spoke of the "victory of realism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Luk%C3%A1cs

Balzac, his number one example, in his La comédie humaine, sure is a son of his time (and a representative for the
bourgeoisiesociety)

He lived very much within his time and his social class, yet his work gives a great survey of the society as a whole.

BTW,:-) He was not only one of the greatest authors of all times, realists or not, but also one of the greatest coffee consumers.

Found this on the webb: "
Honoré de Balzac drank strong black coffee in huge quantity and at any time.

He drank more than 20 cups of coffee per day. Have counted, that during "The Human comedy" writing he drank not less than 15000 cups of strong coffee"

Torgny





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Old Aug 2, 2007, 10:11 PM   #15
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For a scientist, at least, the Dark Ages were dark indeed. Aside from some Irish monks, learning came to an end, and much ofthe progress of Greek and Roman scientists and engineers was lost.

Or rather would have been lost if it hadn't been for the Arabs who took and enlarged it, and returned it to Europe when theRenaissance opened the window again.

BTW, Bahadir, someone I know has told me that the Renaissance was largely a conception of Italian courtiers, a public relations campaign, to take credit for something that had been procedign quietly for some time before them.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to say, but I have to admit that the sheer quantity of intellectual genius in Italy and Germany in those years was impressive.

Edit:

I don't mean tominimize thecontributions of the Moors, the Indians, and yes, the Turksduring that period, particularly Hezarfen Ahmet Çelebi. My students were surprised to learn the first intercontinental flight took place in the 1600s.




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Old Aug 3, 2007, 3:36 AM   #16
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The Ballad of East and West

Rudyard Kipling (1865–1936)



OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,

Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;

But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,

When two strong men stand face to face, tho' they come from the ends of the earth!




[align=center] [/align]The Ballad of Light and Dark

Mister T (19xx–20xx)


[align=center] [/align]Oh, Light is Light and Dark is Dark and never the twine shall meet ,

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


What about a greyscale?


The D:s advocates through



/T

Below

Coat of arms of the University of Oxford (1231)


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Old Aug 3, 2007, 8:26 AM   #17
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Quote:
bahadir wrote:
Quote:
...

Sometimesone's personal history can quite match the general history even fromanimpassable distance: Time! Whatever may or may not be the case for you, that's good humour you make:G


Ah, sorry for the confusion I caused, Torgny! This part was intended as a wellcome for Bill who arrived at Steve's cafe!a bitlate :-)

In fact I separatedthese words from the ones I had written for you with a chain of dots. But now I see that I forgot to write @ Bill before it in a hurry fearing that I could get a warning from the wife! for spending time in front of my lap top:G

Anyway, my words about humour is also true for you : )

Btw,you'll remember my appreciation on Georg Lucaks from our discussion concerning Brecht and the Epic Theater



.................................................. .............



Dear Barbarian,

No wonder you're a great lecturer for your students providing them striking facts such as the date of the first intercontinental flight:1632 :!:

You might rememberone of my earlier postst in which I introduced the place, Galata Tower, Hazerfan Ahmet Çelebi started his flight across the Bosphorus, the straitseparating Asia and Europe or Eastand West- adressing Torgyn's poem : )

Btw, you're quite right about Arab's contribution to sciences during the middle ages, which calls for anarticle now! I remember feeling thrilled upon reading one of their thinkersopenly suggesting the Evolution Theorycenturies earlier than Renaissance and Reformation in Europe!


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BTW, Bahadir, someone I know has told me that the Renaissance was largely a conception of Italian courtiers, a public relations campaign, to take credit for something that had been procedign quietly for some time before them.
I wouldn't say untrue but half true! When you observe the unprecedented works of early Renaissance artists, sculptures by Donatello, for example,yourealise thatit isn't Middle Age anymore!Also, changing their humblesocial status as labourers, these artistswere to be considered equal to scholars in society.

Btw, it's true that they were supported highly bythecourtiers, the trading and flourishing bourgeoisie! and the church seeking the prestige and wellfare of their city in a civic pride reminiscent of those of the 'city states'in Antiquity..
















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