Go Back   Steve's Digicams Forums > Digicam Help > Batteries or Power Packs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Dec 29, 2006, 5:22 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,870
Default

I'm glad somebody appreciates my sense of humor...

the Hun

rinniethehun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 30, 2006, 7:37 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 358
Default

Hello Coppertrail,

I have nothing against using a UPS, however let's look at whatyou are protecting...

The forming charge is a 0.1C charge for 16 hours. Its' purpose is to evenly distribute the electrolyte within the cell. The consequences of interrupting the forming charge is that you may have to do it again.

The Wizard One has a break in mode that does a forming charge, then it rests for an hour and does a 5 hour discharge.

The discharge capacity during a 5 hour discharge is what the battery manufacturers are supposed to use to rate the capacity of their cells. This information is useful from an academic perspective, but it tells us little about the capacity of the cell under actual use loads. Losing this information hurts a little, but is not the end of the world.

The charger then rests another hour and does another forming charge at 0.1C for 16 hours. If there is an interruption during this phase, the charger will reset to the default setting and charge the cell back up.

This break in mode gives the cell a deluxe conditioning and I am glad that it is available, however I am most interested in the charging side of it. While curiosity may find the 5 hour discharge results interesting, you can get a pretty good idea of how a cell is going to perform during a 2 hour discharge.

So, if your power stays on long enough to complete the 16 hour forming charge, the rest is academic.

My only "issue" with the power going out is that when it comes back on, the charger charges at the default settings. I think my Schulze charger handles power interruptions better. When the power comes back on, it sounds an alarm and will not charge until you reset things. While this is a little inconvenient, it is very safe.

Tom
SilverFoxCPF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 30, 2006, 9:09 PM   #33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 203
Default

SilverFoxCPF wrote:
Quote:
So, if your power stays on long enough to complete the 16 hour forming charge, the rest is academic.
Hi Tom -

If the rest is academic, why wouldn't they include a mode that simply charges the cell @ 0.1C for 16 hours? In other words, how much more benefit do you get from the rest of the forming cycle?
coppertrail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 31, 2006, 11:10 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,870
Default

Now I get it!!! I finally realized what you guys are doing - you're not buying batteries to use in your digital cameras...you're buying batteries do do scientific research on. You buy a $3.00 AA battery, then you plunk down over $100.00 in charging and test equipment. First you do a break-in or forming charge, carefully monitoring all the required parameters. Then you study all of the collected data, and enter it into your computer. Then you discharge the battery at various rates to see how it performs. Then you upload that information into your computer. Then you begin the charging cycle all over again and again and again, to see how long they last. Then, periodically, you compare all of your data with other individuals on the WWW and see who has managed to milk the most mAh out of a single AA battery. By the time you gather all the data, you realize that someone just came out with a larger capacity battery, so you buy one and start all over again. Then someone comes out with a new charger, so you buy one of those and start all over again. But you never finish researching...

Well I made the mistake of leaving some of my batteries out on my desktop last night, and they are P.O.'d, bigtime. Apparently they read your thread, and realized that they never got the type of treatment that your battery has. My poor batteries have never had their electrolyte evenly distributed within their cells...they never had a break-in cycle...they never had a forming charge...they have never experienced the thrill of having a 0.1C charge for 16 hours...they tremble in fear each time they get thrust into the charger, because they know there is no back-up power supply there to assure continuous charging parameters...

Well, you know how batteries talk...by now, I'm sure that all of my batteries are aware of the barbaric treatment that I've exposed them to over the years. What if they rebel? What if they suddenly all decide to self-discharge themselves? Should I go out and buy a $60 charger? Should I buy an APS unit? Can I make up for the damage I've already done to their internal chemistry, or is it too late for my poor batteries? Can I expect my 3 1/2 to 4 year old 1800 mAh AA's to suddenly go belly up because I rip them right out of their device, put them in a charger and crank it up to the max, and an hour later put them back in their device? Or will they continue to perform as they have? Three years from now, when I still have my 1800's, and there are 5,000 mAh AA's out there, should I still use the 1800's, or buy the 5,000's? I can't afford to spend all this money on batteries...this was supposed to be cheaper than using alkalines!

Happy New Year!

the Hun

rinniethehun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 31, 2006, 2:01 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 358
Default

Hello Coppertrail,

The only cells that I have seen any benefit from an additional forming charge are ones that have been stored for extended periods of time, and/or have fallen below 1.0 volts during storage. These cells should be recycled, but sometimes it is fun to try and revive them.

Sometimes it works.

You can check this out by doing a forming charge, then during the rest period pull the cell and do a refresh/analyze on the cell. Now you will have a number to compare to. You can then do another forming charge and repeat the refresh/analyze mode and compare the discharge capacitynumbers.

I think the 39 hour cycle is designed for cells that are misbehaving. It doesn't hurt anything to use it on good cells. It is interesting to see how close the cells you are testing come to their rated capacity, and it is nice to end up with charged cells at the end of the test. I would guess that some decisions had to be made during the design, and if they were anticipating having to deal with problem cells, they made a good choice in their programing.

Tom
SilverFoxCPF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 31, 2006, 2:35 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 358
Default

Hello The Hun,

Happy New Year to you too.

Your 1800 mAh cells would benefit from a forming charge, but they will probably continue to work fine for an extended period of time. The lower capacity cells seem to behave better and be more robust than the high capacity cells.

When you go to finally replace them with the latest high capacity cell, you will wish you had paid closer attention to us "research" types.

The portable devices I use are powered by batteries. I have found that all batteries are not equal. Through the use of analyzers and testing, I come up with a matched set of cells that allow me to have years of trouble free use. When performance suffers, I can quickly analyze what went wrong and replace the problem cells.

I have also discovered that my batteries perform better when "pampered" on high quality chargers...

Tom
SilverFoxCPF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 31, 2006, 8:35 PM   #37
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 84
Default

Hoo, boy, what a discussion this has turned into!

I don't have an APC attached, but the new MAHA charger seems to be doing fine. I stuck some 2300 MAH batteries in a drawer a couple of months ago, disgusted with their performance and waiting for the new charger to come out. I ran the breakin cycle on them a couple of times and they are doing a decent job again. So I think it is fair to say that it is going to make our batteries last longer. Cost effective? Probably marginal, to be honest, but it is environmentally responsible and convenient, so let's give it some points.

Heat hasn't been a problem, and the display and controls are very easy to see and use, as the advance intel by Silver Fox indicated they would be.

I would make two changes if they asked me for my idea of a perfect charger:

I would like to have a "start" button. That would do two nice things: It would let me re-start a cycle or change cycles without taking the battery out and putting it back in to be re-detected and start the prompt menu again; and it would give me the time to consider what settings I wanted to use when prompted, rather than being rushed to make a selection before the defaults kicked in. Picky, picky, picky.

And I would like to be able to turn the screen off. Mine is in the bedroom, and it is kind of bright for a nightlight. It's bugging my wife, and when momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

But it's a beaut, gang, it really is.
docmoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 2, 2007, 2:51 PM   #38
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 30
Default

Have had the C9000 since 12/29 and it is really a nice unit. Not really knowing what to expect I have been very happy with its performance so far. My main use for the charger is for my SB800 and I can finally see if the Energizer 2500's that I have are really worth keeping.

Along with the unit I ordered (4) Powerex 2700's and (4) Sanyo Eneloop's. I have left the Eneloops alone since I have read many posts where there seems to be no improvement with doing a break-in cycle. These will stay in my camera bag as a last resort type of thing. Could be that I have drained my current batteries and there is nowhere to charge etc.. Not likely but I like to plan ahead. The Powerex 2700's will live in my SB800 and will be used consistently. I plan on getting another set of (4) so that I can swap both sets.

Now back to the better stuff. I put in my new 2700's and ran them through a break-in cycle. I was very inpressed to see that all four Powerex reported charges of 2626, 2659, 2651, and 2636maH. I have not used them yet but plan on doing so real soon in my SB800.

For the Energizer's 2500's I ran a Refresh/Analyze cycle since I have been using them in my flash recently and the with just one cycle all four of them are at about 2100maH which is kind of dissapointing. I plan on running them on another cycle to see if there is an improvement, but Its looking more like I am going to put these aside and order my some more Powerex 2700's.
Edrod13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 3, 2007, 3:06 AM   #39
blr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 339
Default

Hello Hun


I guess youcommunicated your sarcasm fairly well. First thing you need to learn is that people have all kinds of hobbies. To me, for example, itis 100% pointless to go fishing when I have a nice fish store 300 m from my place and they sell fish I'd never catch anyway. I, however, would never be rude to people that have fishing as a hobby.

My parents thought me to be tollerant, yours were perhaps less strict on this issue, or you didn't listen.

Others here chose to ignore you, I didn't. Internet forums cannot and should not be manner schools, but it can help.

Now, about chargers. If you use as many cells as I do, you will be concerned about the charger.

Thankfully, despite folks like you, there arer communities like this here where people can exchange usefull info.

Happy New Year

grow up,

blr
blr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 3, 2007, 7:12 PM   #40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,870
Default

blr,

I guess you failed to communicate much of anything with your last post. I guess we need to get a few things straight...

"First thing you need to learn ..."

I don't need you to teach me anything.

"...people have all kinds of hobbies."

And what's your hobby blr - battery charging? Sounds like a great way to spend a Sunday afternoon! I hope you didn't think I was being rude.

"...it is 100% pointless to go fishing when I have a nice fish store 300 m from my place and they sell fish..."

A fish store that sells fish - now that's a novel approach. If the fish store goes out of business, you'll starve, because you don't know how to fish.

"I, however, would never be rude to people that have fishing as a hobby."

You were rude as Hell to me, and I fish for a hobby.

"My parents thought me to be tollerant..."

They certainly didn't think you how to spell.

"Others here chose to ignore you, I didn't. "

Really? And why do you think they chose to ignore me - are they that much smarter than you?

"If you use as many cells as I do, you will be concerned about the charger."

I guess I'll never be as important as you, because I just don't own as many cells as you do. By the way - how many cells do you use? Gosh, I'm really in awe of you!

".Thankfully, despite folks like you, there arer communities like this here where people can exchange usefull info."

So far, this entry was the only thing you contributed to this entire thread - and you consider this useful info? Did you feel it necessary to come out of hiding...to crawl out from under your rock, so you could scold me for spoiling your little forum? Wouldn't it be nice if all the folks like me would disappear from the face of the Earth, so you and all of your little geek friends could just quibble to and fro' about who has the most cells, and who has the highest milliamps, and whose charger is in compliance with specification requirements? Don't hold your breath, blr...you'd better learn to live with it.

"grow up,"

Bite me!

The Hun






rinniethehun is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:06 AM.