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Old Jun 5, 2007, 3:03 PM   #11
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I have run my Z612 a lot longer than the 15 or so shots I did Saturday. The battery indicator, when using the KLC-8000 battery is not a "Hey, I'm about to shut down indicator."
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Old Jun 6, 2007, 11:26 AM   #12
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Ok thankfully my wife and I arent crazy!

Bought my wife a z712 IS for mothers day as we were scheduled to hit Disney World at the end of May(yes it was a blast). Along with a 4Gig SD card and 8 Energizer 2500NiMH I had just bought for her old camera.

We took with us the CRV3 single use that came with the camera (with already 60 or so pix tanke with it) We managed to get that to last another 200 or so pix. We then switched to our Energizer 2500mah NIMH. Those would at best get about 60 pix before the low battery indicator appeared and had to be swapped with in 3 or 4 pix.

The rechargables were new and between 5-20 charges. So it wasnt deterioration althogh maybe not fully broken in? Dunno.

The pictures were fabulous though!
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Old Jun 6, 2007, 4:04 PM   #13
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SilverFoxCPF wrote:
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Hello Alan,

While you are playing around with things, I wonder if you might do a little test for me...
I've done some of my homework now, using2 pairs of freshly charged 'HQ' brand 2500mAh NiMH cells.

I found..........
  1. The ‘low battery' icon is either ‘on' or ‘off', and shows no intermediate states at all (unlike my previous digicams). [/*]
  2. Once the ‘low battery' indicator appears, with NiMH batteries, it's very uncertain how long operation will continue. It might be no shots at all if you do a little modest reviewing of results, or may be as many as 90 or more if you keep on shooting, don't zoom much, and don't switch off. Presumably many more with the monitor off. But earlier I have had terrible performance with NiMH even when never using the monitor. [/*]
  3. So......A pair of well-charged NiMH cells is just about useable as a backup in dire emergency only, if you're lucky, and preferably if you minimise energy use and don't switch off until you've finished. I wouldn't recommend it (as Kodak don't).[/*]
One pair gave, with the monitor on all the time, viewing of 20-30 images in review mode. Low battery appeared. I then shot 20 5Mpix 'basic' frames, with 2 zooms in & out , 'single' autofocus & IS, before disorderly, messy shutdown toa final state where the lens extended and immediately retracted again. So not a lot of use there.

The second test with the second identical pair turned out completely differently.All four cells started very nearly identical and finished very nearly identical, as measured by cell voltage and current delivered through a 37-ohm battery tester.

At the finish they had terminal voltages 1306-1313mV, and load currents 35.8 to 36mA. As a set of 4, they would, I know,continue to operate my Casio QV-5700 for a very long time. So I think the camera closes down if it detects a battery voltage less than just over 2.6V, which means that NiMH will never use a lot of their charge, and, as Kodak have said, not an appropriate power source for this machine.

Freshly charged they were 1420-1447mV and delivered38.8-39.7mA;

4.5h later, unused theywere 1387-1412mV, 37.7-38.6mA;

Another 27h 2 of themwere 1362 & 1376mV and 37.3mA (forgot the other two).

The second set, with the monitoron, did a full format of a 500MB card, followed by 44 shots to fill the memory and another 11 before 'low batt'. I 'reviewed' these and then though I had final shut-off. But it recovered, and though showing low battery, carried onfor 90 more until I had134 shotsstored altogether.

These results look silly, but I think they underline what 'bayani' pointed out above - one's energy use may vary wildly. It's pretty certain to be erratic, because of where the 2.6V (2x1.3V) cutoff comes in the spectrum of possible discharge curves for NiMH.

However I still hold to my view that it would have been possible to give a clue to state of charge with a slightly more subtle Li-ion battery indicator, because I've seen it work well in 3 other cameras which I still use.

Anyway, this is all just for academic battery interest, because I now have my Li-based rechargeables plus one-and-a-bit disposables, to decay gently and expensively whether I use them or not. Remember it began because the battery holder will take AAs, and Kodak failed explicitly to spell out loudly enough the difference between the power systems in the Z710 and Z612 and Z712 models.

Keep on shooting & shooting

Alan T
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Old Jun 6, 2007, 5:51 PM   #14
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As I said earlier with Li-Ions the battery condition indicator does show useful life. While I carry spares I've never felt any rush to put them in just because the battery level indicator shows up. In fact the indicator in the Z612 with Li-Ion give my as good a picture as the indicator on my DC5000 did with alkaline AAs.

I haven't read the Z712 manual but the Z612's manual warnings were explicit enough for me. Not to mention that I had already read the warnings on Kodak's FAQ. Again I didn't 4-5 pieces of equipment that used NiMH so my background and expectations were different.

Another part of my background/expectations I'm the tecWal-Mart and get CVR3s in an emergency.
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Old Jun 15, 2007, 1:34 AM   #15
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Here are some tips I pulled off the Internet written by Isidor Buchmann founder and CEO of Cadex Electronics Inc., in Vancouver BC. Mr. Buchmann has a background in radio communications and has studied the behavior of rechargeable batteries in practical, everyday applications for two decades.

While the tips were written primarily for laptop lithiu-ion batteries, I would think the same principles apply to camera li-ion batts:
  • Avoid frequent full discharges because this puts additional strain on the battery. Several partial discharges with frequent recharges are better for lithium-ion than one deep one. Recharging a partially charged lithium-ion does not cause harm because there is no memory. (In this respect, lithium-ion differs from nickel-based batteries.) Short battery life in a laptop is mainly cause by heat rather than charge / discharge patterns.[/*]
  • Batteries with fuel gauge (laptops) should be calibrated by applying a deliberate full discharge once every 30 charges. Running the pack down in the equipment does this. If ignored, the fuel gauge will become increasingly less accurate and in some cases cut off the device prematurely. [/*]
  • Keep the lithium-ion battery cool. Avoid a hot car. For prolonged storage, keep the battery at a 40% charge level. [/*]
  • Consider removing the battery from a laptop when running on fixed power. (Some laptop manufacturers are concerned about dust and moisture accumulating inside the battery casing.)[/*]
  • Avoid purchasing spare lithium-ion batteries for later use. Observe manufacturing dates. Do not buy old stock, even if sold at clearance prices. [/*]
  • If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one to the fullest and keep the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator. Do not freeze the battery. For best results, store the battery at 40% state-of-charge. [/*]
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Old Jun 15, 2007, 1:34 AM   #16
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Here are some tips I pulled off the Internet written by Isidor Buchmann founder and CEO of Cadex Electronics Inc., in Vancouver BC. Mr. Buchmann has a background in radio communications and has studied the behavior of rechargeable batteries in practical, everyday applications for two decades.

While the tips were written primarily for laptop lithiu-ion batteries, I would think the same principles apply to camera li-ion batts:
  • Avoid frequent full discharges because this puts additional strain on the battery. Several partial discharges with frequent recharges are better for lithium-ion than one deep one. Recharging a partially charged lithium-ion does not cause harm because there is no memory. (In this respect, lithium-ion differs from nickel-based batteries.) Short battery life in a laptop is mainly cause by heat rather than charge / discharge patterns.[/*]
  • Batteries with fuel gauge (laptops) should be calibrated by applying a deliberate full discharge once every 30 charges. Running the pack down in the equipment does this. If ignored, the fuel gauge will become increasingly less accurate and in some cases cut off the device prematurely. [/*]
  • Keep the lithium-ion battery cool. Avoid a hot car. For prolonged storage, keep the battery at a 40% charge level. [/*]
  • Consider removing the battery from a laptop when running on fixed power. (Some laptop manufacturers are concerned about dust and moisture accumulating inside the battery casing.)[/*]
  • Avoid purchasing spare lithium-ion batteries for later use. Observe manufacturing dates. Do not buy old stock, even if sold at clearance prices. [/*]
  • If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one to the fullest and keep the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator. Do not freeze the battery. For best results, store the battery at 40% state-of-charge. [/*]
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Old Jun 16, 2007, 1:56 AM   #17
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ac.smith wrote:
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I've never felt any rush to put them in just because the battery level indicator shows up.
But until I've experimented, and managed to keep records of what I did, I have no idea, after the indicator appears, how long I've got with typical use before shutoff. If it's in the middle of a session, or in an awkward situation, it might be very urgent, or it might not. I don't know yet, and if I change the battery as soon as it appears, I'll never know.

This issue has never arisen with the Li-ion on my camcorders and my Casio, because they have a progressive indicator. On the Casio, it's full, 3 blocks, 2 blocks, one block, empty, and then a bit before shutdown. So I'd always change the battery in good time, with a good idea of how long I'd got. Until I've done it, I don't know whether the 712's indicatormeans '3 blocks', or none.

It takes me back to first VW Beetle, new in about 1970. It didn't have a fuel gauge; it had a reserve tank. If you wanted to have a reasonable idea of how much fuel there was in the tank, you had to run until it 'conked out'. There was a 1 gall reserve tank, switched in by means of a lever in the centre under the dashboard, which one could kick over with one's left foot (easy in the UK) without stopping. Cautious persons kicked it over before overtaking, and remembered to put it back after completing the manoeuvre. If you never used the reserve, and didn't fill the tank to the brim in good time every time, you never knew howmuch fuel you had.

Fortunately, both Li-ion and Ni-MH are said to be tolerant of 'top-up' charging, borne out bymy own experience. As you'll remember, Ni-Cd cells weren't.

Thanks for the replies.

Alan

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Old Jul 5, 2007, 12:08 PM   #18
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Alan,

I'm new here and my wife just bought a Kodak Z712. It's an awsome camera, she loves it.But, she goes through batteries like crazy. This is one of the only forums I've found so far talking about the batteries for this camera and I have a question I hope you can answer.

It seems that the batteries die very quickly and I'm not sure if that's normal. As you know, this Z712 came with the disposable CRV3. It tanked within a couple of days and probably about 100 pics taken. Just for fun we tried regular AA's - won't do that again....hehehe.My wife gota re-chargable CRV3 and it didn't make it past 30 pics (I personally don't think she charged it fully).

I see that you can also use a re-chargable battery called KLIC8000. My question is, what is the difference between the re-chargable CRV4 and KLIC8000? Is one better than the other.

Thanks
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Old Jul 5, 2007, 3:31 PM   #19
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I think you were asking the other Alan and I'm sure he will provide his experience.

The KLIC8000 is Kodak's rechargeable LiIon for a number of the superzooms including the Z710, Z612 and Z712. A fully charged KLIC8000 in my Z612 is good for around 350+ shots when using the EVF primarily, the LCD and the review function only occasionally, and no flash. I have not used a CVR3 to the end of life but a Z710 user reported he had a life of around 500 shots.
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Old Jul 5, 2007, 11:50 PM   #20
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In addition to the commnets on CRV and KLIC8000. If you have the Kodak package of KLIC8000 and charger, most any other replacement/after-market KLIC8000 will charge on the Kodak charger.

The CRV rechargeable matteries require a separate charger and may not properly charge on the Kodak charger.

IMHO, you should decide which battery type you want to regularly use so that you don't have too many charger lying around.
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