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Old Jul 6, 2007, 6:14 AM   #21
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bayani wrote:
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In addition to thecomments on CRV and KLIC8000. If you have the Kodak package of KLIC8000 and charger, most any other replacement/after-market KLIC8000 will charge on the Kodak charger.

The CRV rechargeablebatteries require a separate charger and may not properly charge on the Kodak charger. (Alan T's emphasis)

Hi 'bayani',

Do you know this for sure, or is that what Kodak say? Kodak will obviously wish to sell their charger at a premium. I also quite understand that they'll wish to protect themselves against any liability for any mischarging of their proprietary KLIC-8000 batteries on after-market third-party chargers. With Li batteries, this is a much more real & dangerous possibility than with Ni-MH.

Remember the recent worldwide laptop battery catastrophe! It produced very dangerous incidents, and had serious financial consequences for major international corporations.

On his excellent 'Battery University' website, Dr Isidor Buchmann discusses Li-ion charging hazards....

http://www.buchmann.ca/chap3-page5.asp et seq., and says (quoting his book)

"Manufacturers of Li-ion batteries refrain from mentioning explosion. 'Venting with flame' is the accepted terminology."

Many portable devices such as MP3 players & phones have batteries that are difficult to replace, though I notice spares are now available in gadget shops. Rechargeable Li-ion batteries for cameras have often been proprietary, and priced so high as to deter the carrying of spares. (I had to buy a spare for my Casio EX-750 when I forgot to take its charging cradle on holiday.) Rechargeable CRV3s are therefore a major departure in consumer batteries.

Kodak included a charger and KLIC-8000 with the Z612, but not with the 712, presumably to keep down the package cost. My camera shop thinks that this won't matter when selling to those parts of the market (dare I say 'USA') that are still rooted in throwaway culture, and well used to disposable lithium batteries in consumer cameras.

The Z712 price point is very low, at least here in the UK, (though it's just gone up!). If Kodak are aiming at those people upgrading their old digicams(quite probably at no extra cost over their last point & shoot), I applaud the move.

I think any ordinary point&shooter, who's not a photonerd like us, moving on to a Z712 will be delighted. High class photography has never be available more cheaply. Say goodbye to fuzzy holiday pics with the subject's head missing! It's just a pity that I had to go out & buy a battery & a charger as well.

If KLIC-8000 batteries differ from other rechargeable CRV3 replacements, please can one of our friendly lurking battery experts explain the difference to me? I suspect, but don't know that my Unirossand 'Digital' rechargeable CRV3s are identical in design to the KLIC-8000. But even if that's true, we know nothing about quality standards. Kodak, being very big, has a bigger reputation to keep, so I'd expect theirs to be better.

I've done some interesting open-circuit measurements on rechargeable CRV3s that intrigue me. I inquired about this here some time ago, but got no definite response. I'll post this in a separate thread here shortly.

Have fun! Every digicam owner needs a Vigital Dolt Meter! Rechargeable Li-ion is the nuclear power of photography. It does the job well, albeit at great expense, but carelessness can have serious consequences.

Alan T
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Old Jul 6, 2007, 1:30 PM   #22
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bayani wrote:
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The CRV rechargeable matteries require a separate charger and may not properly charge on the Kodak charger.
Yes, now I understand what you meant, as I'm busy explaining in another thread, now I've done some more homework. Probably they won't charge at all, let alone properly, on that charger!

What wasn't clear to me (or other users) was that the 'Rechargeable CR-V3 batteries' that I and others own (and use successfully in the Z712) are not the same as,indeed are distinctly different in contact design from KLIC-8000. They just fit the same battery compartment, and do work, relatively cheaply, but probably not as well, as I'll explain in another thread later, if someone else doesn't do it first.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Alan T
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Old Jul 6, 2007, 3:19 PM   #23
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Thanks for your information, Alan. Here is my experience with CRV3s. When I had a Z740 I bought several CRV3 batteries by different makers, assuming that they were all the same electrically and physically. Much to my surprise and disappointment, they were not! The charger I bought with one pair of batteries would not charge another maker's batteries Nor would they charge in the Kodak printer dock. The printer dock will only charge Kodak batteries batteries in the camera. My Z740 now belongs to my sister. When I gave her the camera I kept one pair of CRV3 batteries that didn't have a charger. Out of curiosity I put them in my Z712 and found that they still have a full charge after a year and a half of sitting! By the way, for the Z712 I bought 10 authentic Kodak non-rechargable CRV3 for $35 on eBay. With minimal LCD and flash use I got around 500 shots off of one of these non-rechargebles; with frequent LCD and flash use I got about 350 shots.
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Old Jul 9, 2007, 3:43 AM   #24
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profe wrote:
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The charger I bought with one pair of batteries would not charge another maker's batteries Nor would they charge in the Kodak printer dock.

In contrast, with non-Kodak branded KLIC8000, they charged very well in the Kodak charger for the KLIC8000.
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Old Jul 9, 2007, 3:47 AM   #25
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Alan T wrote:
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Yes, now I understand what you meant, as I'm busy explaining in another thread, now I've done some more homework. Probably they won't charge at all, let alone properly, on that charger!
Alan T,

I'm no expert at batteries but I believe the incompatibility is in the type of battery, besides the contact configuration.

A CRV3 is a lithium battery while the KLIC8000 is a lithium-ion battery, something having to do with chemistry.
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Old Jul 9, 2007, 5:07 AM   #26
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bayani wrote:
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but I believe the incompatibility is in the type of battery, besides the contact configuration.

A CRV3 is a lithium battery while the KLIC8000 is a lithium-ion battery, something having to do with chemistry.
No it's not. It's an incompatibility in terminology. 'CR-V3 batteries' are indeed primary lithium batteries. But the poorly and misleadingly named 'Rechargeable CR-V3 batteries' are in factlithium-ion batteries. All their characteristics indicate that this is so, as well as the instruction leaflets, and it says so on the battery. See picture below.

I'm retired research electrochemist, and though not specialising in the area, I have in my time written reviews ofbattery and other energy storage technologies. At the time we had in mind MegaAh rather than milliAh, however.

I have pictures of two specimens. The oneat the bottom of this postis my own, and carries the well-known 'Uniross' brand. Note the third terminal for charging on a charger that won't take 2-terminal non-rechargeable Li CR-V3s.

See the website...

http://www.smallbattery.company.org.uk/sbc_crv3r.htm

Go to that link first (showing a 3-terminal battery like mine) and then click the link below it saying... "new improved, higher capacity CRV3R which has a capacity of 1480 mAh."

This showsa 2-terminal high-capacity 'rechargeable CR-V3' development I discovered therein a websearch on Saturday. Alarmingly I see no reason why very dangerous recharging of a non-rechargeable CR-V3 shouldn't be attempted on a charger that fits these. I forlornly hope the non-rechargeable batteriesare protectedinternally somehow against attempts at charging. I'm told the chargers carry stringent warnings.

I hope this makes things clear.

Alan T
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Old Jul 9, 2007, 10:44 PM   #27
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Alan T,

Thanks for the clarification. Theoretically, therefore, rechargeable CRV3 batteries, being lithium ion also, should charge on the Kodak KLIC8000 charger. Except, the KLIC8000 charging terminal is not at the bottom.

Too bad. The higher mAH ratings that are coming out will probably mean we will see highly rated CRV3 rechargeables giving us more pictures than a KLIC8000.

Gary
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Old Jul 9, 2007, 10:58 PM   #28
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bayani wrote:
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Too bad. The higher mAH ratings that are coming out will probably mean we will see highly rated CRV3 rechargeables giving us more pictures than a KLIC8000.

Gary
Maybe sometime in the future. At this point there's no evidence of any third party battery doing that.

For the record I just measured the open circuit voltage of the KLIC8000 that I had used up at the political rally July 3d and it measured 3.68v. I then took the KLIC8000 that had been put in the camera July 3d, used for some review that dayand then used for 12 flash photos July 4 and it had an open circuit votage of 4.00v.

Attached is a photo of the contact arrangement on KLIC8000 batteries. The center contact is +.
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Old Jul 10, 2007, 12:37 AM   #29
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ac.smith wrote:
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Attached is a photo of the contact arrangement on KLIC8000 batteries. The center contact is +.
Brilliant! Thanks!Until now, I wasn't sure that there there wasn't yet another contact hidden somewhere on a KLIC-8000, that I couldn't see on any of the assorted website images.

Amongthe group ofus round here we've now got quite a good resource together on these assorted batteries. Unfortunately it'll take anyone new a lot of time and a brain the size of a planet to take it in. And I've managed to sprinkle itover several dispersed threads, so that I can't easily find it myself.

We stillneed a demon technologist with all the chemical and electronic skills & equipment (and spare money & time & bravery) to dismantle specimens of all these and diagnose the form & function of their built-in protection systems, if any.

Time to get out & take some pictures! Thanks everybody.

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Old Jul 26, 2007, 11:43 AM   #30
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ac.smith wrote:
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...I just measured the open circuit voltage of the KLIC8000 that I had used up at the political rally July 3d and it measured 3.68v. I then took the KLIC8000 that had been put in the camera July 3d, used for some review that dayand then used for 12 flash photos July 4 and it had an open circuit votage of 4.00v.
Now I think we're getting somewhere over KLIC-8000 vs'rechargeable CR-V3'.

As you may recall, from one of the unfortunately dispersed messages on this theme (mostly my fault), my specimens of the latter consistently...

...start at3.86V(4.2V if I use the tiny centre charger contact), not 4V;

and finish at 3.11V after Z712 shutdown, not 3.68V, with little or no warning from the low battery indicator.

So here's a guess:The Z712 may be using something sensed through its side contact, not available when anything other than a KLIC-8000 is used,to detect low battery and shut down in good order. For all I know this may be doing harm to my rechargeables by over-discharging them.

I am also bemused by the difference in the fully-charged o/c voltages. The one on the camera terminals of the CR-V3s is way below the KLIC-8000, but the overall cell voltage is in line with your KLIC-8000. So I think there may bea voltage reducer in the CR-V3s to protect cameras from overvoltage in case they're used to substitute for pairs of alkaline or Ni-MH AAs.

What do you think?

Thanks, Alan T
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