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Old Apr 11, 2008, 3:05 AM   #21
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I've ordered a Maha C204F Battery Charger. The LaCross BC-900 was highly rated at the time I got it, but, I suppose it might be defective.
Doug
You might find out that your LaCross is actually still good.

The problem you are facing might be with the difference in voltage between the KLIC-8000 (which is the top recommended battery for the Z812) and 2 pcs NiMH rechargebales.

The KLIC-8000 is rated about 3.7-3.8 volts and 2 pcs NiMH are typically 2.4-2.8 volts. This is quite a significant difference. Digicams typically (but not all digicams) monitor battery voltage to determine when to show a "low batt" warning and when to shutdown.

IMHO, go with the KLIC-8000 or an equivalent like what you can get at http://www.bestbatt.com.
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Old Apr 11, 2008, 8:45 AM   #22
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Yes, actually I've ordered one with a couple of appropriate cells. The whole order came to less than the price of the charger alone at Best Buy. I'm gonna have more chargers here than San Diego...
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Old Apr 11, 2008, 9:50 AM   #23
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...Some of the larger lithium battery packs have a built in monitor that prevents this by removing the battery fromthe circuit when this level is reached.

Li-Ions used in AA applications probably don't have room for this monitor and so must depend on the device in which they are used to prevent excess discharge.

I can see where a NiMH used in a device designed to use Li-Ionmight reach this threshold long before it were fully discharged, thus giving the appearance of faulty cell(s)....
Yes, Li-ion have various electronic bits built in, because of the high energy density and consequent danger in case of short-circuit or over-discharge, reverse polarity etc. They shouldn't contain any dangerous, flammable metallic lithium; it's lithium ions that carry the current, and they don't store it. http://www.batteryuniversity.com has a lot to say about safety, and describes some of the circuits.

I'd be surprised if all Li-ion rechargeables didn't include these circuits. What on earth is in these circuits bemuses me. My three-terminal rechargeable CR-V3s have a small end contact between the two that the camera sees. Remarkably, when fully-charged there is about 3.9V on open-circuit across the pair of terminals that are presented to camera, but 4.2V across one of them and the centre terminal which is used only by the charger. I have no idea what sort of 'protection' circuit could provide a higher voltage on open circuit (when no current is being passed) than on the camera terminals. I've asked round here about this before, but no-one replied.

Anyway, I hope your problems are fixed by the new batteries.
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Old Apr 12, 2008, 9:50 AM   #24
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Wow, interesting link with lots of info! It'll take me a while to get thrrough it. I see what you mean about the safety features, it kindaexplains the higherprices of the lithium batteries.

As to the weird high voltage in the crv3 cells, I suppose there might be a capacitor in series with the battery output giving that,butit may be there's very little energy available at that voltage. If you use a DMM it doesn't load the circuit very much and those voltages can show up, but they usually do begin to taper off as the meter is left in-circuit. What that circuit might be for is anyone's guess, especially as I found no references to it or circuit diagrams.

I'm fairly certain the Li-Ion cells will work well in the Z812, I just hate giving up on the NiMH after using them successfully for a year.

Doug
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Old Apr 14, 2008, 2:44 AM   #25
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Yes, and to that end I visited Best Buy to pick up a CRV-3 and a different brand SD card. They had the Kingston 2 Gig SD, but no throw-away lithiums. They *did* have a Kodak lithium battery charger for $45, but I then discovered the lithium rechargeable battery pack was an additional $40! I decided to think it over. I'm guessing I can get a CRV-3 at any number of places, so that shouldn't be a problem.

I guess if the camera had never worked acceptably with NiMH cells I wouldn't be going through all this, but it did, SD card and all, so something has changed. It's really got me perplexed.

Don't buy a CRV-3, it's a waste of money. It is basically two AA 1.5v cells in series(Energizer patented Li FeS2) or two 3.0v AA in parallel(anyone but Energizer) and you'd pay more for it than a pair of 1.5v lithium.

You should be able to buy Energizer e^2 lithium just about anywhere for about $10 for 4.
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Old Apr 14, 2008, 3:44 AM   #26
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itsme000 wrot
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Don't buy a CRV-3, it's a waste of money. It is basically two AA 1.5v cells in series(Energizer patented Li FeS2) or two 3.0v AA in parallel(anyone but Energizer) and you'd pay more for it than a pair of 1.5v lithium.

You should be able to buy Energizer e^2 lithium just about anywhere for about $10 for 4.
Isn't the e2 Lithium AA cell also a 1.5V cel? Energizer does have a KLIC-8000 equivalent rated at 3.6v. Their website says:

Energizer ER-DKLIC8000 Digital Camera Battery for KodakBattery Type: Li-Ion
Volts: 3.6
mAh: 1600
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Old Apr 14, 2008, 4:48 AM   #27
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a-beginner wrote:
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itsme000 wrot
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Don't buy a CRV-3, it's a waste of money. It is basically two AA 1.5v cells in series(Energizer patented Li FeS2) or two 3.0v AA in parallel(anyone but Energizer) and you'd pay more for it than a pair of 1.5v lithium.

You should be able to buy Energizer e^2 lithium just about anywhere for about $10 for 4.
Isn't the e2 Lithium AA cell also a 1.5V cel? Energizer does have a KLIC-8000 equivalent rated at 3.6v. Their website says:

Energizer ER-DKLIC8000 Digital Camera Battery for KodakBattery Type: Li-Ion
Volts: 3.6
mAh: 1600
Yes, it is.

Energizer primary(not rechargeable) CRV3 is two e2 connected in series and wrapped in a fancy shell. 1.5 x 2 = 3v

Other brand CRV3 is two 14500 (AA form factor) 3.0v Li-MnO2 in parallel wrapped in a shell. Only Energizer can make 1.5v Li-FeS2 because they hold the patents.

The 3.6v is likely 2 x 800mAh 14500 Li-ion cells in series with protection circuit built into the shell. The battery compartment with no bridge in the center allows the use of two AAs or a joined pack with a foot print of two AAs side by side and DC-DC converter allows the use of 2.4 to 3.6v nominal, with a operating range of probably something between 2 to 4v. All the wiring is done within the shell to allow two 3.0v or 3.6v batteries to be wired in parallel, so you can't use 3.0v or 3.6v cells without the shell, however 1.5v ones can be used with or without.


Kodak makes fancy 2.4v 2 x 1.2v NiMH joined together in a shell, which as you'd expect, cost more than buying a pair of 1.2v NiMHs

Using Li-ion you can probably expect around 5.75Wh while using two e2 lithiums can yield around 9Wh.

Each set of e2 yielding 9Wh cost around $5. If you can make it last months on a set, this is the way to go.

To sum it up, the said Kodak camera can run on:

2 x 1.5v lithium in series
2 x 3.0v lithium in parallel (in a pack)
2 x alkaline or NiMH
2 x 3.6v lithium in parallel (in a pack)

sorry for lengthy post
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Old Apr 14, 2008, 6:09 PM   #28
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itsme000 wrote:
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To sum it up, the said Kodak camera can run on:

2 x 1.5v lithium in series
2 x 3.0v lithium in parallel (in a pack)
2 x alkaline or NiMH
2 x 3.6v lithium in parallel (in a pack)
sorry for lengthy post
At a website I found on the internet, I read this "Kodak doesn't support the use of Alkaline AA's or NiMH re-chargeable AA's" (refering to the Kodak Z812). And other sites say the camera can handle Lithium AA batteries (but doesn't refer to alkaline or NiMH etc).
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Old Apr 14, 2008, 7:16 PM   #29
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It's difficult (for me) to understand why Kodak designed the z812 in such a way that NiMH won't work reliably. I'd think many people would have invested in the technology already, and the non-ability to use it might turn some people away.

Add to that the problems with the various lithium technologies and its higher initial cost and it seems they could have dropped the operating voltage a little to allow the use of NiMH too. (Unless, of course, they figure to sell a lot of Kodak batteries as a result of that decision.)

I used NiMH successfully for over a year, it's only recently that I began to have problems. I'm convinced it's either the SD card havingchanged in some way or the difference in voltage between the various battery brands. I invested in some Sanyo 2700 mAH cells and some eneloop cells to take advantage of the newer technology (to prevent energy loss during storage), but it may easily be that the newer cells have a slightlylower voltage than the older ones and that I've been operating close to the low-voltage threshhold of the cameraall along.

Doug


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Old Apr 15, 2008, 2:28 AM   #30
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dvus wrote:
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It's difficult (for me) to understand why Kodak designed the z812 in such a way that NiMH won't work reliably. I'd think many people would have invested in the technology already, and the non-ability to use it might turn some people away

Doug
After a Kodak, my next camera was another high zoom brand that uses 4 NiMH AA-format batteries instead of some proprietary design.

Now, I do not have to worry about batteries because I can even use alkalines in an emergency and get a few pictures.

On 1 set of 2400 NiMH, I easily get 400 or more photos.

I also have an external flash that also uses AA NiMH so I can switch batteries between the camera and flash in an emergency.

By the way, even my travel shaver uses AA NiMH so this is another one that I can switch batteries with.
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