Go Back   Steve's Digicams Forums > Digicam Help > Batteries or Power Packs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Apr 2, 2008, 11:58 AM   #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19
Default

Sanyo 2700's and eneloop 2000's are discharging overnight in my Kodak Z812. This problem is fairly new, happening for several weeks in a year-old camera that worked fine until this. The batteries were charged in a LaCross BC-900 on Refresh mode so I know they were fully charged.

AFAIK, I haven't damaged or gotten the Z812 wet beyond normal use in normal humidity. I do have a 2 Gig SD memory card installed, perhaps I should take it out and see if that helps?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

dvus
dvus is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old Apr 2, 2008, 10:10 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,870
Default

I don't see how the camera could be discharging fully charged batteries overnight, even if you left it turned on...unless the camera is set on battery discharge mode. Short of that, I would suspect your charger isn't really giving your batteries a full charge. Check them with a meter? Try different batteries which have been charged on a different charger?

the Hun


rinniethehun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 3, 2008, 7:27 AM   #3
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19
Default

Thanks for your reply. As to the camera being on some sort of "discharge mode" I can't definitively say it isn't, but I saw no mention of it in the users manual and I haven't messed around in the menu since I got it and set things the way I wanted.

As to the charger not doing it's job, I suppose that's a possibility and so I've ordered a Maha C204F Battery Charger. The LaCross BC-900 was highly rated at the time I got it, but, I suppose it might be defective. I've read a few things about overheating problems but that hasn't been the case for me. It indicated the Sanyo 2700 mAH batteries were charged in the high 2600 mAH range, but I had no other way of verifying that.

Again, thanks foryour reply,

Doug
dvus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 3, 2008, 12:01 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,870
Default

Good luck solving your problem. Let us know what you come up with - in case the same thing happens to one of us.

the Hun


rinniethehun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 4, 2008, 4:34 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Alan T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chester, UK
Posts: 2,980
Default

dvus wrote:
Quote:
Sanyo 2700's and eneloop 2000's are discharging overnight in my Kodak Z812. This problem is fairly new...........Any suggestions would be appreciated.
If you search in this forum, and in the nearby 'Kodak' you'll find a very large amount of information (much of it provoked by me, starting last May, when I bought my Z712), about batteries for this series of cameras, mostly about the Z612 and Z712.

The question was "what type of battery is best", and the general conclusion was, in order of preference, taking into account performance and cost...

1. A cheap but good quality equivalent battery (and special charger) for Kodak's proprietary KLIC-8000 Li-ion rechargeable (one side and one end contact);

2. Kodak's real branded KLIC-8000, at considerable expense;

3. Various types of 'Rechargeable CR-V3' Li-ion, plus their own chargers, of varying capacity and either two or three contact types;

4. Disposable primary Li CR-V3, various brands; long life, but throwaway;

5. Pairs of disposable AA primary Li cells; long life, but throwaway;

6. Pairs of AA Ni-MH rechargeables.

Only options 2,4 and 5 are Kodak recommendations. Options 1,24,5 are fine; I and others get satisfactory life from option 3; Option 6 (yours) is controversial.

I and a few others gave up rapidly with Ni-MH, finding unacceptably short times to 'low battery' and almost immediate shutdown.

However, my favourite camera shop, ( http://www.wrexcam.com ) whom I trust, on the basis of many satisfactory transactions, and much straightforward honest advice, continues to include the Z812as a 'recommended camera' and still insisting on good battery life with option 6, despite my contrary insistence.

I hypothesise (only a guess) that the anomaly lies in individual variations in camera usage, battery 'freshness', and battery capacity.

For example, wrexcam's tests were in continuous long shoots (of a model) in warm sunny places, starting with feshly-charged high capacity cells. The camera on occasion draws a lot of current, causing a voltage drop, whatever cells are used. The voltage presented to the cameraby my CR-V3 Li-ion batteries is 3.8-3.9V fully-charged, and 3.1-3.2V after camera shutdown.

When I tried to use 2500mAh AA Ni-MH cells, the voltage presented was 2.8V fully-charged, and 2.6-2.7V after camera shutdown.

I've also measured the current delivery capacity through a standard 360-ohm resistor. (The camera will be a hugely heavier load.)

Fresh Li-ion can deliver about 9.7mA, and about 7.7mA discharged in camera.
Fresh Ni-MH can deliver about 7.8mA, and about 7.2mA discharged in camera.

So it seems to me that Ni-MH is marginally up to the job, and you, 'dvus', and some other users, may have been lucky with particularly strong, healthy cells, and at a guess yours are getting worn out at last. After sitting overnight, the effort of extending the lens, and possibly lighting the LCD is just too much for them.

I suggest you check out the camera with disposable Li primary cells, and see if you get the expected lifetime. If the camera is faulty, you may waste the cells, but if it isn't you'll have checked it out. It's a good idea to carry a throwaway CR-V3 as a spare, anyway, because they claim to last about a decade and give hundreds of shots.

Apologies for long post, but I keep hoping this issue will go to bed! Good luck, and happy shooting. I love my Z712 (said it many times).

Alan T
Alan T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 4, 2008, 8:24 AM   #6
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19
Default

Wow, lots of info there, and I thank you for taking the time to write it all. I'll try to reply with some sense of order if I can.

With regard to the battery choices, I was unaware of the KLIC-8000 and the equivalent non-Kodak offerings. They're undoubtedly mentioned in the manual, but as I'd already committed to rechargeable NiMH with a previous Powershot A95 andthe manual lists them as applicable, Ithought I'd be fine with that choice.

I did investigate rechargeable Li-Ion but found very few sources for the batteries and even fewer for the chargers. What I *did* find were articles discussing the degradation of the Li-Ion cells over relatively short periods and so I decided to stay away from them. That may have been a misguided mistake, I don't know at this point.

I particularily wanted to avoid the disposables of any stripe feeling they were too expensive.

When I saw that the Sanyo 2700's and the eneloops weren't lasting as they should I was perplexed, especially since I'd had good luck with NiMH's for a year or so in the Z812. I decided the problem might lie with the LaCross charger and so I've ordered a Maha C-204-F charger that's supposed to be top-of-the-line. Of course, now that it's ordered, I see there's a newer C-204-W that's supposed to beeven better, so I guess it's just like every other electronic device in that respect.

I read your electrical measurements with interest, but I'm confused about the voltages you mentioned. The NiMH cells are rated at 1.2 VDC so that one would think two in series would present 2.4 VDC, unloaded. Even three in series don't seem to add up to the 3.8-3.9 VDC you quote in your discussion, unless the 1.2 V is a nominal voltage and is actually a little higher in real life.

The real thing that bothers me, though, is the apparent loss of energy. If the batteries really were charged to about 2700 mAH (and the LaCross charger indicated they were), where does the energy go? Or, is the Z812 so voltage sensitive that 2 NiMH batteries that have been drained down somewhat cannot present enough voltage to operate the camera even though there's lots of energy left in them?

If the camera was intentionally designed so that NiNH batteries whose voltage was decreased due to partial use won't operate it, then I'd have to say that there were design problems inherent in the camera. And if that were a ploy to sell more of the Kodak lithium packages, then I'd say that was a pretty rotten thing for Kodak to do.

I look forward to readingyour feelings on these matters.

Doug
dvus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 4, 2008, 8:51 AM   #7
Member
 
Almar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Swansea, Wales
Posts: 95
Default

dvus wrote:
Quote:
....so I've ordered a Maha C-204-F charger that's supposed to be top-of-the-line. Of course, now that it's ordered, I see there's a newer C-204-W that's supposed to beeven better,.......

Doug, you won't go wrong with the Maha C-204-W. I've been using one for a little while now and it does exactly what's claimed for it.



I have a lot of AA NiMH batteries (or 'cells' to be precise) which are not all that old and the Maha sorted out a few 'iffy' ones. No wonder I wasn't getting the number of shots I expected in my cameras. What I thought must be good cells owing to their age and light use, turned out to be not so.



I get the expected life out of my rechargeables now. Best money I ever spent and the Maha is considerably more expensive in the UK than in the USA.



Regards, Almar.
Almar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 4, 2008, 10:02 AM   #8
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19
Default

Well, thanks for those encouraging words, but unfortunately I ordered the C-240-F because I didn't realize the C-240-W was available. I don't know the exact differences, but I'm hoping they're not too drastic.

Doug
dvus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 4, 2008, 12:15 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Alan T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chester, UK
Posts: 2,980
Default

dvus wrote:
Quote:
(1) ....degradation of the Li-Ion cells over relatively short periods and so I decided to stay away from them.

(2)...I'm confused about the voltages you mentioned.... unless the 1.2 V is a nominal voltage and is actually a little higher in real life.

(3) ...where does the energy go? Or, is the Z812 so voltage sensitive that 2 NiMH batteries that have been drained down somewhat cannot present enough voltage to operate the camera even though there's lots of energy left in them?

(4) If the camera was intentionally designed so that NiNH batteries whose voltage was decreased due to partial use won't operate it, then I'd have to say that there were design problems inherent in the camera.

(5)And if that were a ploy to sell more of the Kodak lithium packages, then I'd say that was a pretty rotten thing for Kodak to do.

(1) Isidor Buchmann's http://www.batteryuniversity.com says 2-3 years, whether you use them or not, and he knows what he's talking about. I've been using a pair of Sony 'infolithium' camcorder batteries intermittently for several more years than that, and they still seem more or less OK.

(2) Yes. Nominal voltages are meaningless, and depend on the manufacturer. What I've quoted (charged) is similar to any of dozens I've used and tested.

I recommend you buy at least the cheapest Vigital Dolt Meter you can find, and try it for yourself, because everyone should have one around the house. Ideally a 'battery test' range using built-in standard resistors anda current measuring range are desirable extras.

(3) Yes. That's exactly what I'm suggesting may be an explanation.

(4) The energy demands of modern cameras are pretty enormous. Extending the lens, zooming with coarse gearing over a wide range, autofocus , image stabilisation, LCD or EVF screen are all heavy users. My last-but-one digicam (Casio QV-5700, still occasionally in use for special features) used four AA Ni-MH cells. My last one (Casio EX-Z750, also still current) uses Li-ion for compactness. I was upset at first to lose AA on that one, but the lifetime is still excellent (bought Sep05), and it's tiny but fully featured.

The Z*12is series would lose a lot in size, weight and convenience if they were big enough for 4 cells, so I think Kodak were justified in going for Li-ion. However....

(5) They should have been much more explicit about the power requirements. (Power is rate of delivery of energy). Many people, including me and you, just assumed that because the battery compartment would take 2 Ni-MH AAs, that would do. They work for some, but not for others.

They bundled the Z612 in the UK with a KLIC-8000 and charger. I was trying to buy a 612 when I bought the Z712, and that came with only a throwaway CR-V3, to my disappointment.So I thought, "oh well, I've got loads of Ni-MHs". If they'd been more straightforward, kept the KLIC-8000 bundle, and charged a little more, they'd have saved many people a lot of frustration and hours of typing in these forums. This shambles detracts horribly from what I now regard as the best camera I've owned in 48 years of photography (including some upmarket kit). I wish I'd got KLIC-8000 instead of rechargeable CR-V3, but I'm unwiling to spend the money.

BTW, just a few space away in this forum is a "What's in your Z812" thread listing some battery sources. Others have posted theirs as well, if you search a bit, especially in the 'Kodak' forum.

Good luck again!


Alan T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 4, 2008, 6:26 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,870
Default

dvus,

"...but as I'd already committed to rechargeable NiMH with a previous Powershot A95 andthe manual lists them as applicable, Ithought I'd be fine with that choice."

The manual doesn't list them as applicable. Looks like Alan was correct.

Page 2 and 63:

http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/..._UG_GLB_en.pdf

the Hun

rinniethehun is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 7:59 AM.