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Hards80 · Sep 12, 2005, 1:48 AM

you know, i am getting so sick of the endless posts on photography forums touting the death of the 1.6x crop factor camera..

i, for one, love my 1.6x crop factor.. it makes my telephoto lenses longer, always a plus and it uses the best part of the other lenses i have.. ef-s/dc lenses are great, they are sharper, smaller, lighter and sometimes cheaperthan their ef counterparts..

people tout the advantages of the FF camera on wide angle shooting.. i simply do not see this logic.. there are many VERY SHARP 10-20ish lenses out there.. and simply put, they are sharper (esp at the corners) than your much beloved 17-40s on a FF camera.. heck, i wouldn't hesitate to put a good copy of the 10-22 on a 20d up against the veneralble 16-35 2.8 on a FF..

ok, so i am not saying quit developing FF cameras.. as there are advantages, i.e. lower pixel density, brighter vf, etc.. but on the other hand, i simply do not see the major manufacturers going to a completely FF line of cameras..

there are advantages to both, i for one am happy with my 1.6x crop factor and hope that there are 1.6x cameras for many years to come.. as i am sure someone isequallyhappy with their 1ds/5d..

NHL · Sep 12, 2005, 5:23 AM

Hards80

The 1.6x crop will not away... However if you already have a cropped camera wouldn't you want a FF next time? :-)

Canon's own promotion (it's not just the WA) - http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/cmos/fullframe-e/index.html

i.e. it's another market segment, just like automobiles, for folks to upgrade to
... or keep the competition on their toe. :idea:

BTW the medium format folks are not sitting still either

Tomsch · Sep 12, 2005, 5:35 AM

Give me a 20D with a 45point auto focus and I would never be tempted by a FF. If you take a FF avian flight shot and then crop it to get the same image as your current 1.6 then where is the gain? There is still a lot of life left in my 10D and 20D and I don't have any budget left at present so you can label me as part of the 1.6 gang for some time to come.

NHL · Sep 12, 2005, 5:46 AM

See, that's exactly what I meant 1 camera for birding and 1 for portrait/landscape! :-)

Why pick one over the other? :idea:

Gandalf065 · Sep 12, 2005, 8:41 AM

In fact, in Canon's white pages for the 5D, they mention using the 5D in concert with the 20D, for wide/detail type of work compared to tele/action type of stuff!
David

PeterP · Sep 12, 2005, 10:45 AM

I agree, I like my 20D the way it is(mostly :-))
I'd only add a FF if the price was right(under 1K$, so not holding my breath :blah: ).

On the other hand I have a friend who's idea of an extreme telephoto is a 28mm, and he won't touch digital because of the cropped cameras:!: He is happy with his lens collection and does not want to buy any more, especially ones restricted to the cropped camera format. He is eyeing digital, but waiting till he can get a FF for the price of his EOS 1 Vhs (somewhere under 2K$)

So I think there is a place for both formats to co-exist, and I do not think the cropped cameras will ever disapear. At least not until the next major reveloution in photography.

Peter.

Gandalf065 · Sep 12, 2005, 8:40 PM

Peter,
Honestly I think cropped is here to stay... for a while at least.
If we can have full frame at 1500, why not cropped at 400? I think that will still be profitable for Canon/Nikon ect...
David

PeterP · Sep 12, 2005, 9:23 PM

:-D Hum, it oddly sounds like we are mostly all in agreement.:!:
Something must be very wrong somewhere. :-):lol::G:blah:

Peter.

Hards80 · Sep 12, 2005, 10:34 PM

i think there is a planet and something else aligned in the cosmos... i heard about it on the news.. :blah:

BobA · Sep 13, 2005, 12:22 AM

I can really understand many not wanting to go FF, and I hope 1.6 crop cameras are around to satisfy that group, but I do hope that Canon eventually has a FF frame camera in the 20D price rangefor the rest of us.

More important to me than FF though is dynamic range. I'd be pretty happy with a 12MP camera with a few more stops of dynamic range ... and if FF was thrown in as an "extra" for the same price as a 20D then I'd certainly be itching to upgrade. However, right now I'm pretty happy with the results I'm getting with my 20D since my post processing skills have improved to the point that I can finally get the same results I was getting with 35mm color negative film... except outdoors in bright sunlight.

Digital did allow me to finally figure out ETTL/ETTL II though. My flash photos were always [email protected] with my Elan II, but with the instant feedback with digital and some great help from the guys heremy results are nowdecent from both cameras.

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Sep 12, 2005, 1:48 AM	#1
Hards80 Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 9,046	you know, i am getting so sick of the endless posts on photography forums touting the death of the 1.6x crop factor camera.. i, for one, love my 1.6x crop factor.. it makes my telephoto lenses longer, always a plus and it uses the best part of the other lenses i have.. ef-s/dc lenses are great, they are sharper, smaller, lighter and sometimes cheaperthan their ef counterparts.. people tout the advantages of the FF camera on wide angle shooting.. i simply do not see this logic.. there are many VERY SHARP 10-20ish lenses out there.. and simply put, they are sharper (esp at the corners) than your much beloved 17-40s on a FF camera.. heck, i wouldn't hesitate to put a good copy of the 10-22 on a 20d up against the veneralble 16-35 2.8 on a FF.. ok, so i am not saying quit developing FF cameras.. as there are advantages, i.e. lower pixel density, brighter vf, etc.. but on the other hand, i simply do not see the major manufacturers going to a completely FF line of cameras.. there are advantages to both, i for one am happy with my 1.6x crop factor and hope that there are 1.6x cameras for many years to come.. as i am sure someone isequallyhappy with their 1ds/5d..

Sep 12, 2005, 5:23 AM	#2
NHL Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: 39.18776, -77.311353333333 Posts: 11,599	Hards80 The 1.6x crop will not away... However if you already have a cropped camera wouldn't you want a FF next time? :-) Canon's own promotion (it's not just the WA) - http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/cmos/fullframe-e/index.html i.e. it's another market segment, just like automobiles, for folks to upgrade to ... or keep the competition on their toe. :idea: BTW the medium format folks are not sitting still either

Sep 12, 2005, 5:35 AM	#3
Tomsch Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 442	Give me a 20D with a 45point auto focus and I would never be tempted by a FF. If you take a FF avian flight shot and then crop it to get the same image as your current 1.6 then where is the gain? There is still a lot of life left in my 10D and 20D and I don't have any budget left at present so you can label me as part of the 1.6 gang for some time to come.

Sep 12, 2005, 5:46 AM	#4
NHL Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: 39.18776, -77.311353333333 Posts: 11,599	See, that's exactly what I meant 1 camera for birding and 1 for portrait/landscape! :-) Why pick one over the other? :idea:

Sep 12, 2005, 8:41 AM	#5
Gandalf065 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 575	In fact, in Canon's white pages for the 5D, they mention using the 5D in concert with the 20D, for wide/detail type of work compared to tele/action type of stuff! David

Sep 12, 2005, 10:45 AM	#6
PeterP Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,397	I agree, I like my 20D the way it is(mostly :-)) I'd only add a FF if the price was right(under 1K$, so not holding my breath :blah: ). On the other hand I have a friend who's idea of an extreme telephoto is a 28mm, and he won't touch digital because of the cropped cameras:!: He is happy with his lens collection and does not want to buy any more, especially ones restricted to the cropped camera format. He is eyeing digital, but waiting till he can get a FF for the price of his EOS 1 Vhs (somewhere under 2K$) So I think there is a place for both formats to co-exist, and I do not think the cropped cameras will ever disapear. At least not until the next major reveloution in photography. Peter.

Sep 12, 2005, 8:40 PM	#7
Gandalf065 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 575	Peter, Honestly I think cropped is here to stay... for a while at least. If we can have full frame at 1500, why not cropped at 400? I think that will still be profitable for Canon/Nikon ect... David

Sep 12, 2005, 9:23 PM	#8
PeterP Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,397	:-D Hum, it oddly sounds like we are mostly all in agreement.:!: Something must be very wrong somewhere. :-):lol::G:blah: Peter.

Sep 12, 2005, 10:34 PM	#9
Hards80 Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 9,046	i think there is a planet and something else aligned in the cosmos... i heard about it on the news.. :blah:

Sep 13, 2005, 12:22 AM	#10
BobA Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 301	I can really understand many not wanting to go FF, and I hope 1.6 crop cameras are around to satisfy that group, but I do hope that Canon eventually has a FF frame camera in the 20D price rangefor the rest of us. More important to me than FF though is dynamic range. I'd be pretty happy with a 12MP camera with a few more stops of dynamic range ... and if FF was thrown in as an "extra" for the same price as a 20D then I'd certainly be itching to upgrade. However, right now I'm pretty happy with the results I'm getting with my 20D since my post processing skills have improved to the point that I can finally get the same results I was getting with 35mm color negative film... except outdoors in bright sunlight. Digital did allow me to finally figure out ETTL/ETTL II though. My flash photos were always [email protected] with my Elan II, but with the instant feedback with digital and some great help from the guys heremy results are nowdecent from both cameras.