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Old Oct 6, 2006, 1:05 PM   #21
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I agree with what others have said when it comes to upgrading from the 20D to the 30D. But if you don't have either then you will be sitting on the fence doing nothing but waiting......Every, lets say 18 months there will be a new camera.............. So if you never purchase for fear of a new item coming out..........................

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Old Oct 6, 2006, 4:18 PM   #22
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rhett7660 wrote:
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I agree with what others have said when it comes to upgrading from the 20D to the 30D. But if you don't have either then you will be sitting on the fence doing nothing but waiting......Every, lets say 18 months there will be a new camera.............. So if you never purchase for fear of a new item coming out..........................

R~
Hello rhett7660,

That would be true if you didn't own either a 20D or 30D or didn't already own a Sony DSC-H1. Which I do...as I already mentioned. And if you are, as you said, "...in fear of a new item coming out...". Which I'm not. I'd just rather consider the 40D over the 30D as it should have some noteable improvements over the 20D.

Such as the new DIGIC III processor, dust removal, better battery life, increase in MP to at least 10.2 if not 12.8...and I hope dedicated ISO/WB/Picture Quality buttons like the Nikon D200. I don't think that's asking for too much.

Thanks for posting and have a good weekend!


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Old Oct 7, 2006, 1:31 PM   #23
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My question is when is Canon going to use the full size CMOS sensor in the xxD line? I think it would provide a significant competitive advantage to Canon over Nikon.
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Old Oct 7, 2006, 2:01 PM   #24
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My question is when is Canon going to use the full size CMOS sensor in the xxD line? I think it would provide a significant competitive advantage to Canon over Nikon.
I doubt they will. Canon already has the 5D which sort of fills the gap between the amateur user and the pro. Why would they want another comera to compete with the 5D? Besides, I think Canon DSLRs produce better pics any how IMHO. If you're looking for a camera that doesn't boost the colors as Nikon does. And Canon DSLRs also produce sharper pics out of the box compared to Nikons.

In a the test reports for both the Nikon D200 and Canon 30D, http://www.dpreview.com, said they had to raise the sharpness setting to High +2 on the Nikon D200 for it to be competitive. And if you were a Nikon owner would you leave it at +2?

In my eyes Canon already has a "significant competitive advantage" over Nikon. But, if I had to name one thing that Canon could do is to offer dedicated WB/ISO buttons a la Nikon D200 in the upcoming 40D. They already have "semi-dedicated" WB/ISO/AF buttons on the 1Ds/1D/ 1D-N (though I think for ISO you need to press two buttons simultaneously). So that you could keep your eye on the viewfinder and still make the changes immediately. And not miss the shot. Or potentially miss the shot. Whether you're a hobbyist like me or a "semi-pro".

My 2 cents...
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Old Oct 8, 2006, 4:17 AM   #25
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My question is when is Canon going to use the full size CMOS sensor in the xxD line? I think it would provide a significant competitive advantage to Canon over Nikon.
They won't.

For various reasons the production costs of a 24x36mm sensor is about 10 times the cost of the APS-C sized sensor.

It accounts for the majority of difference in price between the 30D and 5D.

Estimates vary, but I think a production cost figure of around $100 for a 30D sensor and $1000 for a 5D sensor is close to right.

The retail cost of the 5D is ~$2800, and the 30D ~$1200. Subtract the cost of the sensor from both and it's maybe $1800 v $1100.

So basically my view is that the 5D is already the XXD camera with a FF sensor.

And if your marketing price point for the XXD is around $1200 for the body, and a FF sensor costs $1000, you can see why it's not going to happen.
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Old Oct 8, 2006, 4:54 PM   #26
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Thanks for the responses. It appears that Canon will not be able to fulfil its statement that it wants to move all cameras to a full size sensor - at least not anytime soon.

I still think that the 30D needs to be upgraded quickly to remain competitive - Those shopping for megapixels will migrate to the Rebel or the D200. Canon's strength in digital bodies has always been its relatively low noise sensor, and there is not really a significant difference between the D200 and the 30D otherwise. With the ability to resell lenses, there is really little incentive to remain with Canon if it doesn't provide a better grade non-pro camera.
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Old Oct 8, 2006, 6:08 PM   #27
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sts2007 wrote:
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Thanks for the responses. It appears that Canon will not be able to fulfil its statement that it wants to move all cameras to a full size sensor - at least not anytime soon.

I still think that the 30D needs to be upgraded quickly to remain competitive - Those shopping for megapixels will migrate to the Rebel or the D200. Canon's strength in digital bodies has always been its relatively low noise sensor, and there is not really a significant difference between the D200 and the 30D otherwise. With the ability to resell lenses, there is really little incentive to remain with Canon if it doesn't provide a better grade non-pro camera.
Hello sts2007,

Canon said they were planning to make all their DSLR cameras FF??!! Where did you read this? And when? Not that I'm doubting you. :-)

And I agree with you in that Canon really does need to give us the 40D ASAP!! As in next Spring after announcing it at he 2007 PMA show. If they don't Nikon will just continue to own the semi-pro market with the D200. Getting more buyers like me who have neither owned a Canon DSLR or Nikon DSLR. And possibly Canon XT owners who want more in a camera.

I would have considered the new XTi but Canon still refuses to do something substantial with the grip. All they did was round it out a little. But, it's still too small for most male hands. And probably a lot of female hands. If the grip isn't comfortable the chances are we're not going to want to use it. At least that is the case for me.

As for the 30D vs the D200...I think there ARE significant differences beyond low noise at high sensitivities. The D200 is more customizable and has dedicated WB/ISO/QUAL buttons. Something which I think is very valueable in the field. Especially if you are making a living as a photographer. Or even if you're a hobbyist. Having to take your eye from the viewfinder will cost you that money shot (s). And there are other big differences I won't go into.

In any event, all we can do now is wait for the 2007 PMA show to roll around. And hope Canon does something SUPER spectacular with the 40D. To grab the spotlight away from Nikon and their D200 gem. And not do just another "20D to 30D" type of move. Which I doubt they will do again. Canon now has a few new technologies they can shoehorn into the 40D (e.g. DIGIC III, dust removal...etc.). And assuming they only offter a handful of new features...will that be enough to motivate new DSLR buyers to buy and XT owners to upgrade? Time will tell.
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Old Oct 9, 2006, 2:34 AM   #28
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If they don't Nikon will just continue to own the semi-pro market with the D200. Getting more buyers like me who have neither owned a Canon DSLR or Nikon DSLR. And possibly Canon XT owners who want more in a camera.
I think you're forgetting some things.

Nikon, as matters stand at the moment, don't own any part of the market. Canon has the lead in every sector in terms of units sold and units currently selling.

The semi-pro users are in the same boat as the pro users; they generally have far more money sunk into their lenses and accessories than they do in the camera body. Switching systems is not something to do on a whim, it gets really expensive.

The only people that find the D200 really attractive compared to the 30D are:

1.new users

2.current Nikon owners

3. people who simply must have the latest gadgets

4. people who have lots of cameras and fancy adding it to their collection

Notice how "current Canon owners" is not on the list, except as a fraction of 3 & 4.

Sure the D200 has a few nice features that the 30D doesn't have, but the 30D is better in other ways. The extra MP don't really seem that compelling to people who have a clue. Particularly considering the resolution comparisons published at DPReview.

Current Canon owners have an upgrade path to 1D and 5D so its not as if they are desperately stuck for choice. Also current Canon owners are not so stupid as to think that Canon will never respond. It's obvious how these things go - the manufacturers leapfrog each other. It's called competition and it's good for Canon owners to have a healthy Nikon option in the market.

Also notice how the Nikon and Canon cameras aren't pitched at exactly the same segments either?

In terms of features and price they kind of interleave...

D50 - XTi - D80 - 30D - D200 - 5D - D2 - 1D

So is the D200 a 30D killer or a cheap alternative for people who can't afford a 5D? Well of course it's both.




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Old Oct 9, 2006, 7:25 AM   #29
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peripatetic wrote:
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It's obvious how these things go - the manufacturers leapfrog each other. It's called competition and it's good for Canon owners to have a healthy Nikon option in the market.

Also notice how the Nikon and Canon cameras aren't pitched at exactly the same segments either?

In terms of features and price they kind of interleave...

D50 - XTi - D80 - 30D - D200 - 5D - D2 - 1D

So is the D200 a 30D killer or a cheap alternative for people who can't afford a 5D? Well of course it's both.

Really, this is the key to it all. I just don't understand why people are so concerned with ther manufacturer (whether it's Canon, Nikon or whatever) coming out with a 'XXX killer'. And, 'oh, manufacturer Y is doomed unless they can combat the new XYZ model from manufacturer Z'. Everyone is going to sell off their $5000 lens collection at pennies on the dollar (after all manufacturer Y is doomed so their lenses are no longer worth anything). For 2 years the Nikon folks wailed waiting for something better than the D70 - and yet, somehow, Nikon survived. Now Canon folks are wailing that Canon has lost all competitive edge - Nikon, Sony and Olympus are all passing Canon bye. And, at some point in the future Canon willl release something that will have Nikon folks again bemoaning Nikon is doomed.

The reality is - there are outstanding cameras in both Canon and Nikon lines and there always will be. With any luck, Sony will continue to make good / excellent camera bodies pushing both Canon and Nikon. At the end of the day, anyone capable of pushing cameras like the Canon 30D and Nikon D200 to their limits wouldn't be posting on forums - they'd be far too busy making tons of money.

So, if you're thinking of jumping systems, do so carefully - do it because the new system offers somemthing at the SYSTEM level - not just because of a single camera body. Otherwise in another year you'll be wanting to switch back.

In the mean time, as a Canon owner, I wish Nikon, Pentax, Sony and Olympus continued success. Every inovation they come up with puts pressure on Canon. So, in the end - it all benefits me
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Old Oct 9, 2006, 8:38 AM   #30
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Paripatetic,

Forgetting something? Not that I'm aware. :-) And, when I said "...Nikon owns the semi-pro market with the D200..." that was just my guess. I never claimed to have done any in-depth market research. It just seems to me that Nikon "owns" one segment of the market in terms of the feature set. And I do think Canon and Nikon have models aimed squarely to compete with each other.

The Canon XTi vs the Nikon D50 (entry-level DSLR). Canon 30D vs the Nikon D80 (advanced hobbyist). The Nikon D200 vs _____? (semi-pro or should I say "advanced amateur and a half"? Heh!). Just seems to me the 5D with it's FF sensor would be lumped into the "pro market". It too with no real peer (entry-level pro). Then you have Nikon's D2Hs vs Canon's 1D Mark II-N (8.5 fps cameras for the sports journalist). And then the Canon 1Ds Mark II vs the Nikon D2Xs (the PRO). At least that's how I see it and how I'd compare the two manufacturer's line-up.

But as for the rest of what you said. I'm with you for the most part. As to which Canon owners might jump ship. I mean this is one of those debates that could go on forever I suppose. However I have to say that I think the Nikon D200 does have some very worthy features that WOULD make a Canon owner jump ship. On a "system level" and all. Especially if you're looking for a "moderately priced" camera to make a living with (e.g. dedicated ISO/WB/AF buttons). And you couldn't afford to miss that one shot. Which isn't to say the 30D isn't a great camera in it's own right too. It is without a doubt. Just aimed at a different type of type of consumer IMHO. Which is why I lumped the 30D with the D80. For the "advanced hobbyist".

JohnG,

Good points and I agree with most of what you said. But, speaking for myself, when I said that "....Canon better come out with a D200 beater...blah, blah, blah...or else..." I wasn't implying that Canon's fate totally depended on winning the D200/40D one-up-manship "battle". That if Canon doesn't introduce the 40D with landmark features that would make camera geeks around the world stand up and do the "Frodo dance" that it would spell the end for Canon as a whole. Far from.

I simply meant that by coming up with a "D200 beater" in maybe the 40D that Canon would again grab the spotlight. At least till Nikon comes up with their "40D beater". :lol:

My 2 cents...to each his own! Have a good week guys!!
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