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Old May 3, 2007, 6:29 AM   #21
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Mark is right on. Also, not all action takes place in great lighting.

TV removes your ability to ensure you're getting the shallow dof you want. That alone is a good enough reason not to use it. In the shot you posted NHL shallow DOF is not a requirement but it sure is in many field sports - you want to be at 2.8, not 4.0, certainly not f8.

But beyond that it is dangerous for many people to use. Let's say you're outside and you're taking sports shots. And you've dialed in a shutter speed of say 1/500 - because that's what you've heard is the amont of shutter speed necessary to stop action. And that shutter speed gives you an aperture of 5.6 (even though you're using a 2.8 lens). Now the sun comes out a little more, suddenly your aperture shoots to f11 (2 stop swings are fairly common). Those shots will look horrible.

If you're shooting AV mode you dial in your 2.8 and start out with shutter speeds of 1/2000. You get plenty of speed to stop the action and you get the DOF you really want.

So now, let's put a little twist on things - let's say the person shooting TV wants that 2.8. They recognize that 1/500 gives them a 5.6 aperture and they correct it - they bump the TV up to 1/2000 and things are great for a short time. Now the sun goes behind a particularly dark cloud and suddenly it's a 2 stop swing the other way. To get a proper exposure the camera would need f1.4 - guess what? That isn't available. Once again they get crappy results - this time because the shot is underexposed as Mark and Eric mentioned was possible.

You can easily see 2 stop swings in a matter of minutes - heck, if you're shooting in AV or TV you'll see that much and more if you're shooting multiple subjects and one is light and other is dark (white jersey vs. navy or white car vs. black).




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Old May 3, 2007, 8:28 AM   #22
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JohnG wrote:
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TV removes your ability to ensure you're getting the shallow dof you want. That alone is a good enough reason not to use it. In the shot you posted NHL shallow DOF is not a requirement but it sure is in many field sports - you want to be at 2.8, not 4.0, certainly not f8.
Actually the DOF is very critical for me as well as I do want my subject to pop out from their 'fuzzy' background; However the DOF also depends on the focal lenght so in the case of shorter lenses I would agree, but when you shoot with a 500mm or above (that has a fantastic bokeh) then blurring out the background is not so much an issue @ higher aperture - here an example @ f/18 (again with the slowest shutter speed I can get way with and still convey motion):





Hey like I said, I'm the odd guy out in the bunch - My standard may not be as high as other, but I'm meticulous about details as in the previous wind surfer image that I posted: The main subject will be sharp regardless of any high shutter speeds, but the wake from the surfboard can be shaped by the amount of shutter speed one dials in to the camera - In this case Av does nothing (the subject is already well isolated combined with the excellent bokeh of the long tele), but the wake trails would look quite different as the shutter speed increases or decreases(more preferrable) in Av - Wouldn't you guys agree?
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Old May 3, 2007, 8:52 AM   #23
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NHL wrote:
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but the wake from the surfboard can be shaped by the amount of shutter speed one dials in to the camera - In this case Av does nothing (the subject is already well isolated combined with the excellent bokeh of the long tele), but the wake would look quite different as the shutter speed increases/decreses in Av - Wouldn't you guys agree?
So, what you're saying here is you want to limit the shutter speed to a specific value - even if DOF changes.

Here's the problem with that. In your windsurfing example - what is the background? Ocean. So having deep DOF isn't much of an issue. Now let's take shooting sports on a field / race track etc. Subject distance is typically 40 yards or less from your position. And by the way there are annoying cars / fences / people right by your subject. You can't afford aperture opening up any more. And as I stated you can't afford for the shot to be underexposed because you locked in a shutter speed and the aperture available cannot sustain that shutter speed.

Query 100 competant sports shooters and you'll find that TV mode is used as Mark and I have stated - when you want to artificially limit how high the shutter can go. Unless you're panning, 90% of the time you don't want to do that. In that same 90% of cases you want your dof as shallow as possible (remember - if you're shooting basketball you can't get 50 yards away so you can rely on a 500mm lens to give you shallow dof - in baseball, soccer, football, et. al. you have very annoying backgrounds to contend with). When you're dealing with outdoor sports and a quality lens you want to be wide open 90% of the time. Which modes guarantee you'll be wide open? TV doesn't. That's why it's a poor choice. You're pointing out exceptions to the rule (wave crests and wanting them to have the same amount of break in every shot - how many sporting situations does that type of thing apply to?). There are always exceptions to any rule. Just like your advice to not use AI Servo for sports & action but instead use single focus is an exception to the rule.

Proper DOF and MINIMUM (key term here is minimum) shutter speed are the key components to the majority of sports shootiing situations. It is rare in sports that you don't care about DOF and want a precise speed. And to be honest in many of those instances where you wan a precise speed, Manual is the correct mode - because you can get your certain speed AND have the dof you want.

Feel free to scour the forums and find another competant sports shooter that recommends TV mode over manual or AV for instances other than panning or a very minor selectin of shots. Go over to sportsshooter.com and see if you can find a pro there that recommends TV as anything other than an exception use.


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Old May 3, 2007, 8:57 AM   #24
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I'm following and hadn't really thought of long lens and smaller subject as generally I'm working with people, horses, cars rather than birds so that works.

For kitesurfing (just to correct you :blahr you could have gone for kitebording) I take 2 approaches depending what I want.

Here is one where I was using Av as I wanted to get a reduced dof.



and one where I wanted movement



As for your work nothing at all wrong with it and I always read your posts and take in advice over a lot of others who post here (especailly on different lenses).
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Old May 3, 2007, 1:17 PM   #25
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IMO NHL has passed the point where "rules" apply. He knows his equipment backwards and forwards and can bend it to make the shots he's looking for.

He has a different style, but is there any doubt he'd get great shots in a sports shoot? Not in my mind. And I bet no-one here would be willing to put money on him using Tv the whole shoot and not coming away with some stunning images.

I'm not sure that it's a good idea for Michael Schumaker to give driving tips to a beginner though.

No disrespect to anyone intended.
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Old May 3, 2007, 1:29 PM   #26
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peripatetic wrote:
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And I bet no-one here would be willing to put money on him using Tv the whole shoot and not coming away with some stunning images.
I agree NHL is a wonderful photog. But I'll take this bet in a heartbeat. HS baseball game in sunlight. Whole game, 100 photos at least 40 action shots. Shoot it all in TV and let's see the results. Assuming you don't pick your shots to eliminate the action that occurs at 1st and 3rd base and home plate so you have to deal with the backgrounds.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"Either you'll spend the whole time fiddling with ISO to keep your apertures wide enough to blur the backgrounds or you'll have bad shots.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"I think people who don't shoot sports underestimate how difficult it is. Remember the challenge though is a gallery of shots not 1 or 2. The key here being the arguments support the EXCEPTION in sports shooting not the rule.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"By the way, NHL - i don't mean this as confrontational to you - no doubt your skills are very good and I'm sure you could easily adapt to be a sports shooter - but I'm equaully convinced that you'd change your style.
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Old May 3, 2007, 2:00 PM   #27
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Imacer wrote:
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By using this mode will it be good or not for sports and moving objects?
Taking this back to the original question for most sports (taken from my experience of shooting at a lot of different events - a lot of which can be seen on my website as well as talking to other pro shooters locally and on forums) you will want to be using Av most of the time (assuming that you can't get away with manual) for people sports unless you need to have a specific shutter speed (generally reduced), such as when shooting vehicles where motion needs to be included to convey speed, where you would then be looking at using Tv.
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Old May 3, 2007, 3:57 PM   #28
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Guys I already realized how everyone shoot in Av... (no offense taken really) :-):-):-)
-> I started initially in my 1st post : "Actually I'm the odd man out again"
... and then repeated: "Hey like I said, I'm the odd guy out in the bunch"

All I try to convey is don't rule out Tv - The worst case IMO is for someone to pick-up this thread and then switch to Av for all action shots and never touch this knob again just because they read that Tv is not good when great effects can be achieved from this mode



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Old May 3, 2007, 4:44 PM   #29
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To follow from from NHL and to encourage people not to rule out the use of Tv here is my suggested list of what to use Av, Tv and Manual for although this is not set in stone as some times you will need to use another option and manual can be used in all situations (people had to years ago you know :crazy.

This is my list and others might not agree!

Av (aperture value/aperture priority)

Football (soccer), football (American), field hockey, rugby, running and all track and field, baseball, softball, kitesurfing, windsurfing, tennis............. there are probably loads more but my brain is not working.

Tv (times value/shutter priority)

motorsports (all kinds), cycling etc.........

I also use Tv for kitesurfing when I want to get motion blur

Manual

Indoor sports, volleyball, basketball, netball, gymnasticsetc......


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Old May 4, 2007, 3:56 PM   #30
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To add to Mark last post I would also suggest readers to know their equipments, especially the lens - I realise that in some conditions one needs to shoot wide open because there is no other choice, but when one doesn't have to (like on a super tele) why then limit the lens in Av? The DOF here is so thin that one can be flexible with the apertures and still retains a fantastic "bokeh".

The benefits are several folds by stopping down:
1. Potentially less USM in Photoshop
2. Help the camera AF errors
3. Explore the lower limits of the camera


-> Bokeh @ f/8:


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