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Old Aug 13, 2003, 6:40 PM   #1
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Default Best all around setting for outside photography

Hey Everyone,

Yeah this is probably a bad post. But I have a serious question. Outside, I dont seem to have a very high shutter speed. I change my ISO to say 400 or 800 and then it jumps way up, but then I get that grainy texture stuff going on. What do you recommend for a shutter speed with a lens of f4-5.6. It seems to work pretty good on say 125-250 /f5.6 /ISO 400. Is that a typical setting. You gotta keep in mind. Im kinda new to this manual stuff. The E-10 didnt help much...

Russell
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Old Aug 13, 2003, 7:39 PM   #2
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Well I guess Im gonna talk to myself on here... :lol:

Anyways, some of my test results I did. I used a tripod
for these settings. But these are the things I figured out.

ISO - The lower the ISO number (ie: 100) the better the image comes out to be. However, depending on light, a steady arm or a
tripod is recommended where it is required to use a slower shutter speed. You can higher the shutter speed by using a higher ISO (ie: 800) but may result in undesired picture quality results. But if you can try to shoot at ISO100 correct?

F-Stop - The lower the F-Stop (In my case its f4) the better off you are. The lower the number, the more light is allowed into the lens. There for you can use a higher shutter speed. However, with a zoom your f-stop grows and less light is taken in, which in turn makes your shutter speed drop. Thats where the ISO kicks in and makes it more sensitive to the light available, but again, can cause undesired results of picture quality.

I think I got them? Please correct me if Im wrong because I really wanna get this down. Like people have said, people learn things easier then others, and in different ways. For myself, I need something visual to see what it does to the image itself. Obviously Ive noticed from the 10D sample pics and my own that a higher ISO (800+) is when your despriate for speed?

Im learning guys... take it easy on me with your replies
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Old Aug 13, 2003, 8:32 PM   #3
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Of course we'll take it easy. Unlike many forums I read, we're rather causal and friendly here.

You are basically right in your two definitions, but you left something which.... well, you might infer from your knowledge which would be wrong. So I'll define those terms my way and you'll see how they overlap. Realize that I'm an engineer by training, so I like to understand the technical reasons for something so I have the foundation to really understand the effects.

ISO on digital cameras
It increases the sensitive to light of the sensor (CCD/CMOS/whatever.) This means that if you increase the ISO, you make the camera more sensitive. The same amount of light will produce a lighter/brighter picture at ISO 400 than at ISO 100. The downside to this is that the pictures will have more "noise" in them. This results in pictures that have artifacts in them which are clearly not part of the picture, but part of the process of taking the picture. Take the same picture at the highest ISO and lowest ISO you can do in Av or Tv mode, and look at them on your computer. Youíll see what I mean. Luckily programs like Neat Image (www.neatimage.com) can help alleviate that problem.

I believe as you change ISO, it is the same as increasing the amount of light by 1 stop. So ISO100 F8 1/250th of a second becomes ISO200 f4.5 1/250th of a second or ISO 200 f8 1/500th of a second (I believe. Anyone?)

Changing the ISO is (to an extent) a very useful way of getting the shutter speed you need. As long as you donít go too high, or the noise is worth it because you really have to have that picture (without using a flash.) Normally, I change exposure compensation first. That means the picture gets slightly darker but I get a higher shutter speed. I can brighten the image in PS with higher quality results than I can remove noise with neat image.

F-stop on digital cameras
F-stop is a measure of the opening in the lens which lets light into the camera and onto the sensor (or film, conceptually it is exactly the same there.) The lower the f-stop, the more light you get. I donít remember all the details, but here is what I remember. Each f-stop number gives you twice as much or 1/2 as much light as the previous setting (ignoring that some digital cameras can alter the settings at 1/2 and 1/3 increments.) So when an f2.8 lens is more expensive than an f3.5 or f4 lens, that is because it can capture more light. It has more glass (the opening is larger) and that larger glass (should be) better quality or at least there is more glass of the same quality (which is harder to do.)

As for the zooming changing the f-stop. That is an aspect of the lens you are using. Some lens have a constant f-stop across all their zoom range (they are more expensive) others donít. You lens changes as you zoom, by its design, so that is what happens.

I agree with your comment about ISO800 being where the quality really starts to drop off. Iíve seen the same thing (although I can see the difference between 100 & 200, it takes effort to do that. I still consider 200ISO acceptable.) But that is an aspect of your camera. Others the quality drops off much sooner. That is just part of the reason the 10D costs as much as it does. Lower noise at higher ISO.

As to your first post, what mode were you using? P? M? Av? Tv? What time of day? How bright is it out? We wonít be able to answer your first post without this info. Also realize that you eye is much better at seeing in low light than a camera is. Also, your eye can see more f-stops of light than a camera can. You can see and distinguish about 10 f-stops worth of difference in light at the same time (I believe, anyone back me up or correct me?) I often shot within an hour of sunset at ISO 800 (or 400) f5.6 1/300th of a second, some times 1/200th or so.

Eric
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Old Aug 13, 2003, 9:17 PM   #4
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hmmmz,

That software seemed really handy and could be very useful to me. So I purchased it. I have some old Olympus pictures that it looks like it used a high ISO and made that "Noise" all through it. To be honest. Your probably gonna laugh and everyone else. I thought my E-10 was junk because of the "Noise" it was making and bought this 10D. That tells you how much I have to learn huh... :lol: But I also wanted interchangable lenses as well... so I guess it all wasnt because of noise... :roll:

This should do wonders on some of these wedding pictures I took.

Thanks
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Old Aug 14, 2003, 12:49 AM   #5
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Neat Image is amazing. Truly amazing. I'm using the free version, but I'm going to upgrade for the batch processing feature. I'm going on vacation and I'm going to need it when I get back with many Gigs of pictures.

Eric
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Old Aug 14, 2003, 1:52 AM   #6
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Eric,

Yes, it is my experience that doubling the ISO will rougly get you one stop of light (shutter or aperture) basically. I play with ISO quite often. I should use your exposure compensation trick more though.

Uni, you got it basically right! Lower F-stop, means more light, therefore higher shutter speed. The lower ISO speed the higher quality image you'll get.

Neatimage is absolutely amazing indeed.

Barthold
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Old Aug 14, 2003, 4:17 AM   #7
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The moral of the story is: ...try to get the smaller the F-stop as you could in lenses (ie faster lenses). BTW Not all zooms get darker as the focal lenght increases, constant aperture lenses are available everywhere, they just happened to cost a little more because of the extra glass and the more complex design! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Most folks just go for wide mm numbers while ignoring the critical f-number which makes the difference in getting the shot or not in some situation... Another side benefit is more DOF control.
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Old Aug 14, 2003, 10:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric s
ISO on digital cameras

I believe as you change ISO, it is the same as increasing the amount of light by 1 stop. So ISO100 F8 1/250th of a second becomes ISO200 f4.5 1/250th of a second or ISO 200 f8 1/500th of a second (I believe. Anyone?)





Eric
Eric,

On stop larger than F/8 would be F/5.6 not F/4.5, F/4.5 is about 1/2 F stop between F/5.6 and F/4.
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Old Aug 14, 2003, 10:18 AM   #9
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Pretty much depend on the final result or image that you want to achieve and the most important how much DOF do you want in the picture. There is no cookbook type for the recommendations. Knowing the limitation of your camera and understand the characteristics of each of the lens you’re using is the key. Each of the lens should have a few F stop that will produce very sharp image, you have to experiment and try them several times to find out your favorable aperture on that lens. Generally, if you want deep DOF, you may want to shoot with F/8 and smaller aperture, with long telephoto lens, smaller aperture is preferred to assure DOF. If you want limited DOF, you may want to shoot with F/4 or large F-stop. In any case, watch for the shutter speed, if the camera selects the shutter speed base on your selected aperture and the lighting condition and this value is smaller than the focal length of the lens you're using, you should use a tripod. Cheers
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Old Aug 14, 2003, 11:49 AM   #10
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Thanks for the correction. I knew I'd make a mistake or two in there. One of these days I need to write down and memorize the f-stops. It seems odd, but I think it would actually be helpful.

Eric
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