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Old Aug 27, 2003, 4:21 PM   #1
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Default Blinded by the $899/$999 price of the Digital Rebel?

I get the feeling that someone at Canon is laughing at us. Almost everyone is excited about the high quality 10D sensor being put into a crippled and dumbed down Rebel Ti body and being sold for $899.

Sure it is exciting, but I wish it wasn't such of a downgrade from the 10D. Things like the pentamirror viewfinder instead of pentaprism are OK, that probably saved some money, but arbitrary crippling like taking out the flash exposure compensation (which was in the cheaper G1, G2 etc) is almost going too far.

The only new thing on the Digital Rebel is the EF-S mount and economy EF-S lens. I wish Canon would announce an updated 10D (no crippled options, maybe even some new options) with the EF-S mount for ~$1200. I would buy that for sure whereas I'm still a little annoyed by all the arbitrary limitations placed on the Digital Rebel.

Something really new like a stabilized 10D sensor for same price as the current 10D would be really neat. Canon doesn't seem to have much real technical innovations besides quality and price. Sure those are important but real innovations like the anti-shake CCD on the Minolta A1 combined with Canons quality and price would be better.

Anyone else feel the same way?
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Old Aug 28, 2003, 10:25 AM   #2
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No...if there is any laughing, they (Canon) are laughing at Nikon, at least for the moment...
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Old Aug 28, 2003, 10:31 AM   #3
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Default Re: Blinded by the $899/$999 price of the Digital Rebel?

Sure it is exciting, but I wish it wasn't such of a downgrade from the 10D. Things like the pentamirror viewfinder instead of pentaprism are OK

No, it's not ok in my book...the camera body is definitely not make in Japan.

The only new thing on the Digital Rebel is the EF-S mount and economy EF-S lens.

EF-S lens with cheap plastic lens mount, I bet you will find out soon this lens is probably made in Taiwan or Korea.

Something really new like a stabilized 10D sensor for same price as the current 10D would be really neat. Canon doesn't seem to have much real technical innovations besides quality and price. Sure those are important but real innovations like the anti-shake CCD on the Minolta A1 combined with Canons quality and price would be better.

I'm sure the EOS-3 digital version will be out soon...
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Old Aug 28, 2003, 11:31 AM   #4
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Quote:
I wish Canon would announce an updated 10D (no crippled options, maybe even some new options) with the EF-S mount for ~$1200. I would buy that for sure whereas I'm still a little annoyed by all the arbitrary limitations placed on the Digital Rebel.
... I've seen $1399 for the 10D once in a while from eCost! So it's getting there

Remember the price for the 300D/Rebel is to get your appetite up, but once you're ready to order it's the 10D that you really want! (and then they are guaranteed to have at least 2 more follow on sales either way, ie the lenses). Canon is laughing all the way to the bank for sure... :lol:

... Oh and I forgot the external wireless flash(es) which work(s) even better in multiple group(s)! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Sure those are important but real innovations like the anti-shake CCD on the Minolta A1 combined with Canons quality and price would be better.
... Have you heard of the Minolta codename 'Zeus' with the D100's sensor? :P
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Old Aug 28, 2003, 2:30 PM   #5
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It has nothing to do with inovation, it is all marketing.

They are trying to hit as many segment of the buying public as possible, while at the same time making the competition scramble.

They are trying to get the average joe to buy a cheep dSlr instead of a competitors more expensive P&S with more features, well because it is a dSlr. :P
I'd expect to see its street price drop a fair bit shortly as well.

So now Canon has dSlr's in 3 markets, the elChepo rebel range, the mid 10D range and the skyHigh 1Ds range.
Pick your features and pay the piper.

And I agree I expect to see digital versions of the eos3 and elan soon as well.

I wonder how an IS ccd sensor would work with an IS lense,
:P maybe they cancel each other out and give you the shakes :P
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Old Aug 28, 2003, 6:29 PM   #6
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They are trying to get the average joe to buy a cheep dSlr instead of a competitors more expensive P&S with more features, well because it is a dSlr. :P
Quite true that average joe will fall for the bigger and better professional look. Personally I was not to happy with the thought of messing around with different lenses, especially on long hikes. However even prosumers point and shoot cameras seem to have a narrow focal range about f2.8- f8 max. There might be some technical reason why digital cameras don't need the often seen in film camera f11 or f1.8, but still with an slr the user can choose which lense shortcommings to live with or not.
Next what really made me go into 'wow' mode is something stated in Canon documentation; "The camera does not have noise reduction as it does not need such..." To substress that fact the 300D has a bulb mode to last as long as there is battery power (more than 2 hours).

And no indeed this camera does not have movie , sound and all the other media-centre toys seen in most digital cameras. Thus the brother of Joe might rather settle for a Sony F828.
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Old Aug 28, 2003, 9:17 PM   #7
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:P Yes, took me while to catch on to this as well, the reason is physical, the lenses in the P&S are very tiny 5.8-24mm in the case of my 5400.
An f8 opening in a 5.8mm lense is a very tiny pinhole.
And at these tiny focal lengths the Depth of Field is huge at F8.
It would be interesting sombody has done the actual DOF calculations for these lenses.
In the old days(where I started) a 120-150mm lense was used for a "normal" angle of view and f32 or f64 was common to get decent depth of field. In 35mm f11-f16 tipically gives a lot of DOF

Quote:
However even prosumers point and shoot cameras seem to have a narrow focal range about f2.8- f8 max. There might be some technical reason why digital cameras don't need the often seen in film camera f11 or f1.8
This would be a most impressive feature for the dRebel.
Most astrophoto images I have seen taken with the eos 10d are usually made as a series of 5minute or less shots that are then stacked with something like astrostack. And most often a darkframe subtraction is done to each image segment as well. This is done because the CCD starts to build noise as it gets hot. Unless it is chilled like an expensive ccd astrocamera


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"The camera does not have noise reduction as it does not need such..." To substress that fact the 300D has a bulb mode to last as long as there is battery power (more than 2 hours).
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Old Aug 28, 2003, 10:59 PM   #8
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The major difference between a dSLR and most other compact digicams is the shallow DOF (which is usually too deep in compact digicam with smaller CCD/sensors). IE the subject pop out from the blurry background which is only achieveable with fast wide aperture lenses and not stop down to smaller aperture...

This is a typical DOF @ f/2.8 with a 200mm on a 10D (Wing tip to wing tip):



BTW it remains to be seen if the EF-S lenses (or the 4/3 format Oly-Kodak for that matter) have a deeper DOF or not as compared to conventional lenses, since theses smaller designed for digital lenses have a smaller image circle as well. It may not be as dramatic as 2/3 sensors, but the DOF should at least increase somewhat... A small price to pay if the f/2.8 constant aperture zoom could be made a lot cheaper! :P
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Old Aug 29, 2003, 6:46 AM   #9
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NHL, do I understand correct that the f1.8 upto f11 50mm lense for film slr is about the same as f2.8 upto f8 (50/1.6) mm?

Your bird is a fine example, but it does not tell dimensions. As a teaser I have same bird at same size on beach. This one is taken with a film slr at 200mm, I don't recall the apperture I used. Maybe we can set-up a new photographic standard? Seagulf /sand ratio?

To be honest, your photograph has much more style and artisitic interest, mine was taken as therapeutic healing from digital camera shutter delay.
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Old Aug 29, 2003, 4:16 PM   #10
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Mathilde uP

The reason I posted that picture is the DOF is clearly confined to the shadow of the wings on the sand, everything else is out of focus! But you're right as the focal lenght shorthen the DOF will increase accordingly and the aperture has to be wider to compensate... :P

At the other extreme wide angle lenses have tremendous DOF... Fixed focus P&S throw away camera for example have wide angles and tiny aperture!
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