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Old Feb 14, 2010, 7:35 AM   #21
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John you seem determined to miss the point.

I do not claim to be an expert on sports shooting. I don't have any influence at all on how the forum community sees Canon cameras. I can't imagine a single person would take my word on whether the 1DMkIII or IV is brilliant or terrible. If anyone bought or decided not to buy a 1D on my say so they need their head examined. I have never used one, nor am I ever likely to.

And I don't actually have an opinion on whether the 1DMkII, III, IV is very good for sports shooting, wildlife shooting, studio shooting, or taking pictures of ducks in a pond. (Actually, it's probably fine for ducks, I saw a bloke using one for just that the other day and he seemed very pleased with the results he was getting on the LCD.)

You started a forum conversation about a review on RG's site. If you didn't want anyone who wasn't a professional sports photographer to comment you should have said so, but I think that would have limited it to you and Mark on this forum.

Maybe professional photography does all, or almost all happen in the USA, and maybe most of it is local. But the fact is that you have NO IDEA how many photographs are taken professionally across the world of cricket events. Cricket is a bigger sport than all the USA-specific sports combined. Attendance of Cricket is fanatical in India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, (which four countries alone exceed 1.5Bn people - about 5 times that of the USA) and very solid throughout the rest of the commonwealth. If you don't know that then you are just displaying your ignorance of the world outside the USA. And football dwarfs everything else. Neither of those sports is played to any significant degree in the USA. Maybe you think that local photographers in the USA account for 90% of worldwide purchases of 1D and D3 cameras - I don't know, I don't have the data. Nor do you, despite the fact that you are one.

I have no idea about how many photographs are taken of table tennis. Nor do you. You imagine not very many. But it is a huge sport in Asia and just because it's not on your radar, doesn't mean anything. It is one of the big 3 sports in China (popn 1.3Bn people) how many professional photographers cover the sport? I have no idea. Nor do you, despite the fact that you shoot local sports professionally in the USA. Perhaps people in China or India or Europe don't like local newspaper coverage of their sports, that doesn't seem right to me, but what do I know? After all I don't take pictures of HS swim meets! btw how many local sports events would I need to cover to be allowed to have an opinion?

Whether I can link to zero, one or a thousand places with table tennis images makes no difference to the underlying data. I don't know what that is. Nor do you, despite the fact that you think that because you are a sports photographer you are somehow an expert on this.

Well here's one link to the ITTF gallery photo page - which has about 10,000 photos on it. What does it mean? Nothing.

We could go on like this forever. I find a link to a professional sports photographer who thinks Canon is aces. You find one to one who thinks it sucks. Repeat ad nauseum. And it proves nothing. As it happens, there are only two choices; Nikon and Canon and system choice is not just made on AF performance.

The internet is full of opinion and reviews. Ken Rockwell's website is by far the biggest photography website on the internet i.t.o. traffic. It's running at something like 1.5m hits a day. Do you take anything he says seriously? RG is an internet pundit and a very average low-grade sports photographer. He claims to be an expert at evaluating whether these cameras are any good or not. I certainly don't claim that for myself. However, I don't find his reviews or his testing or his writing or analysis credible. I am amazed that so many people seem to put stock in what he says; when you read a review of anything you need to decide whether you find the reviewer credible or relevant. RG, like KR, has influence completely disproportionate to his abilities. I think that anyone who bought or didn't buy a 1D because of his review is nuts.
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Old Feb 14, 2010, 7:44 AM   #22
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Deleted - Double posts

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Old Feb 14, 2010, 7:47 AM   #23
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One also has to realize that theses types of camera has a very small market share (< 1%), but get a lot of coverage because of their 'press' or 'pro' credential...

-> 99% of most dSLR buyers wouldn't care either way!
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Old Feb 14, 2010, 8:10 PM   #24
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Also worth adding is not all newspapers use Cannon or Nikon cameras. The newspaper I work at part time has photographers use their own owned gear. They don't tell us what to shoot with... all they care about is if we get a clean image for them to run no matter what camera it comes from. The only things we are told is the camera needs to have at least 6MP and final images are sent in highest jpg resolution, no raw images excepted (all raw images are to be configured as jpgs before sending in). I use Sony and an Olympus P&S waterproof camera and the other part time photographer uses a Pentax D-SLR. We never send in an entire take usually 10 or 12 images per sport event or other large scale event. We keep all the images available for at least 2 weeks after being sent in in, in case they need any additional shots (although I do save all the good images to disc and hard drives).

dave

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Old Feb 15, 2010, 8:13 AM   #25
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Dave,
I agree - there are small papers all over where it's basically free-lance submission. I'm talking about papers with full time photographers employed - the major and mid major dailys. Such papers have a collection of cameras/lenses and they are signed out by photographers when they go on assignment. For example in Cleveland Ohio area there are 2 major / mid major dailys (Cleveland Plain Dealer, Akron Beacon Journal) that use this concept - there are also 2 smaller papers (Lake County News Herald, Medina Gazette) which also supply camera bodies. Then there are all the small papers like you're talking about - one of which I used to do work for. Now, those are 4 papers all around one small area in Ohio. 5-6 nights a week the photogs are shooting HS sports. They also shoot local college sports. The plain Dealer will shoot NBA/NFL/MLB during those seasons. Everyone else uses AP photos for the most part. So even though the photogs at the 2 big ones shoot pro sports, the large portion of the shots they publish from those shooters is amateur. Now this scenario repeats all over the state. And that's just one of the 50 states. If anyone thinks newspaper photographers are shooting the pro sports and then just sitting around doing nothing the rest of the time they're mistaken. Especially given how many cities in the US don't have a pro sports team. And, it's much cheaper to run an AP photo then pay to send your photographer 250 miles to a pro sports arena.

Travel anywhere in the USA to a decent size city and you'll find local newspapers. Open up the sports section and you'll see photos from the local HS. IF there's a major college around you'll see those photos and IF there's a pro sports team around you'll see those. But everyone has HS and that's what readers want - local.

Now, conversely when I traveled to India on two occasions staying in major cities they do NOT have much in the way of local newspapers. They have regional newspapers with very few sports photos. Now, ESPN there shows a lot of cricket but you don't have thousands of local newspapers with photographers taking those pictures and publishing them in the newspaper - it's just not the same.

So yes there are tens of thousands of small newspapers/blogs all over the place using freelance or free user submitted content. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the major newspapers with full time staffs - by far the largest pool user base for Canon 1dmkIV and Nikon D3s canons. How many shooters are shooting regular for SI? Compare that to all the major newspapers around with cameras. NExt are going to be the pool of Getty / US Presswire shooters.

Now, this is all in the USA. I agree, I haven't traveled enough in Europe so can't speak to things there. Just the US and what I learned when in India.
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Old Feb 16, 2010, 10:29 AM   #26
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The other side - thought it would be useful to include some hands-on reviews:
Review from Russ Isabella...
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/867444
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Old Feb 16, 2010, 1:40 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
The other side - thought it would be useful to include some hands-on reviews:
Review from Russ Isabella...
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/867444
Interesting post, but the 800 lb. Gorilla in the sports world (Vancouver Olympics) right now will be how Canon and Nikon perform at the Winter Olympics.

Many Pro shooters, I would imagine will be comparing Canon camera vs Nikon camera pro performance...both companies have to be on top of their game. I am guessing that no other event in the sporting world has so many working pro photographers at one time, as is the case at the Olympics...either summer or winter. This is the place where reps are made...or unmade...

It will be interesting to see what the pro view will be, insofar as which cameras / lenses do the job best job at the major sporting event of the year, after this huge and demanding event.

I understand from this attached article regarding Nikon Pro cameras, that Nikon are going big in providing pro support for Nikon shooters at the Olympics. Sounds like their market share for pro shooters is pretty good.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news_story.html?id=2372

I just mentioned Canon and Nikon...correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any other camera manufacturer figures in at this level.

Last edited by lesmore49; Feb 16, 2010 at 1:49 PM.
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Old Feb 16, 2010, 2:01 PM   #28
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I agree - the Olympics are a great proving ground. As is the upcoming World Cup. should be interesting to see how they both shake out.
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Old Feb 16, 2010, 3:16 PM   #29
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Quote:
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I agree - the Olympics are a great proving ground. As is the upcoming World Cup. should be interesting to see how they both shake out.
Actually John with your connections in the pro sports shooting community, it would be great if you come across anything regarding the sports shooting world and the Vancouver Olympics, such as the use, testing and trials of photographic equipment , travails of sports shooters at the Olympics, etc.. It would be wonderful if you would post it via a new thread.

I think there are a lot of members that would find this info fascinating.

Thanks, Les
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Old Feb 16, 2010, 5:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
You started a forum conversation about a review on RG's site. If you didn't want anyone who wasn't a professional sports photographer to comment you should have said so, but I think that would have limited it to you and Mark on this forum.
Thanks Craig for including me in this but I'm still very out of the habit of sports shooting, although I hope living in Egypt is going to give me more opportunities. I've already been to an international Tae Kwon Do event where there was no other photographer even approaching pro level (this was a huge event, 5 mats or rings or whatever they are called with many countries represented) and later this week I've been invited to a show jumping event which is again international. The latter is at a ranch where we were looking to have our wedding reception but the costs were too height..... possibly some good photos for the owner might help out

As for the mkIV, I think it looks great, I've read quite a bit around it and think that Rob is potentially messing up somewhere, although not sure how. If I was shooting more weddings and doing sports then this would be my ideal choice to go with the 5DmkII (I like to shoot with a crop body for some longer/close work). Yes I will admit it as it is no secret, I just loving having photographic toys, and this is probably the best toy Canon has to offer currently.
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