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Old Nov 17, 2004, 10:41 PM   #11
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ok, Eric, maybe the prices are bit different, but have you figured out why ? I told ya, many friend delivery back good good canon lens with problems, many..so fragile!! Canon L lenses are excellent, but bit fragile and white !! Nikon has more glass, heavier..resistent...the guys the really goes to the jungle, treckking, many uses nikon resistent lens !! the guys with all white lenses, goes to the basketball court...so..fragile environment....but I agree both has excellent quality, and lens, for me it's 95% of the pictures quality!!



but listen, what canon sucks much if you compare to canon:

white balance

flash

focus

wireless flash system

design

software...

do not even compare, canon took 4 generations of camera to get at same level of nikon d100 ! and that's is true! The Canon mark II camera it's the camera as the nikon D2H, but this is other level! Canon should improve 100 times to offer a good 20D at a resonable price! Hey, to pay 1400 in a camera that doesn't even have a good software to treat the image.c'mon !!!

Yes..maybe I am bad, but I am having the worst focus nightmare with this canon 20d, thing that I've never had in my life with Nikon of even with the Canon 20D ! This new focus system has something wrong ! I am not professional, but I have some photos...not bad, not good..just the average..but I could feel right away the difference !
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Old Nov 17, 2004, 10:57 PM   #12
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The nikon forum is over here http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/view_forum.php?id=58 if you like Nikon so much. Stoptrolling with the anti-Canon vitriol in the Canon forum.

In my 30+ years of work I've successfully broken Nikon lenses, as well as Canon and Sigma and Tokina. I find they are all equally good or bad depending on your viewpoint or BrandReligionAlleigence..:blah:
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Old Nov 17, 2004, 11:22 PM   #13
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afocante,

I respect your opinion, and having worked with customers that religiously support either brand, I have heard some pretty crazy horror stories. The bottom line is that they are both top tier companies, and if you like Nikon more, God bless, go use Nikon!

I have some very formulated views of Canon vs. Nikon myself, but only after about 6 months of research with multiple different bodies and lenses. All I ask is that there isn't a flame war started over this. None of us need to deal with that.

murphyc,

All I can recommend to you sir is to go find a place to play with the hard goods, and make your own opinion! All the research in the world won't tell you that a certain button or grip drives you crazy, or that the balance of the camera is all wrong, ect...

Go do some hands on research. You won't regret it.

David
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Old Nov 18, 2004, 6:12 AM   #14
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Here's the truth

Since last year, I can truly say I owned all three camera brands (and probably owned/used most lens brands out there as well): It's not the camera nor the lenses -> It's the photographer behind them

They all handle a little differently, but just like a car one can only blame its driver for any mishap!


As far as:

White Balance: WB is WB, it's an absolute measurement based on the source and not the camera. The set-up may be different on how each camera get there!

Flash: If anyone understands how the EOS flash metering works, this system is just as accurate as any other. The default setting on the Nikon is just more tolerant to its user's mistake that's all. I can go all day in detailing the good and bad in each system... Anyone interested?

Focus: While most system can focus close to 0EV of darkness, so far I'm only aware of one system than can focus with an f/8 AF lens: http://www.adorama.com/MN5008AFU.html

Wireless Flash: Again if I'm not mistaken, Nikon was actually playing catch up here. Up to a few months ago with the introduction of the SB600/800, there was no wireless flash for any Nikon digital camera: The SU-4 could be used with the D1/D100 but strictly as a dumb slave. Finally to keep the record straight: the wireless flash system was again invented by Minolta followed by Canon a decade later!
http://www.friedmanarchives.com/flash.htm

Design: Metal (Canon/Minolta) vs polycarbonate (Nikon)

Software: Canon always relies on 3rd party... They never want to be in the Microsoft shoes. It's free!

What about noise free pictures all the way ISO-1600/3200 like on the latest Minolta 7D and Canon 20D? :idea:
As fas as using all Nikon lenses made in the past, it's really an alphabet soup of incompatibility: http://www.bythom.com/lensacronyms.htm
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Old Nov 18, 2004, 8:52 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHL
Flash: If anyone understands how the EOS flash metering works, this system is just as accurate as any other. The default setting on the Nikon is just more tolerant to its user's mistake that's all. I can go all day in detailing the good and bad in each system... Anyone interested?
I'm interested. With winter coming on, I'm probably going to use my flash more. And I'm only ok with it. Maybe a different thread? Some "rules of thumb" to get you off on the right foot ("what metering mode generall works better?" kinda stuff) and then more detail?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHL
Focus: While most system can focus to close to 0EV of darkness, so far I'm only aware of one system than can focus with an f/8 AF lens: http://www.adorama.com/MN5008AFU.html
Well, I don't know of any F8 Canon AF lenses, but all three (soon to be four) Pro digital canon cameras should AF at F8. I mean, I know people who do it with the 600mm f4 + 2xTC (If I'm doing that f-stop math right.) I'm told it works about as well as the 600mm+1.4TC on the 10D (i.e. nothing to jump for joy over, but good enough.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHL
What about noise free pictures all the way ISO-1600/3200 like on the latest Minolta 7D and Canon 20D?
Ok the images I've seen at ISO800 aren't "noise free" on the 20D. It is better than the 10D, but "noise free" seems like a bit of an exageration.
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Originally Posted by NHL
As fas as using all Nikon lenses made in the past, it's really an alphabet soup of incompatibility:
Ya, but at least some of their really nice really old lenses still work. That is your trade off. Either work/don't work (Canon) or protect a really old investment by having really old lense that partially work. I'm glad I went with Canon so late in the lens-mount-switching game, so there is effectively no problem for me. But I know 30+ year Nikon uses who still use old lenses which only partially work because they are really good lenses (and they are cheap and don't want to buy a replacement.)

Eric
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Old Nov 18, 2004, 8:58 AM   #16
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eric s

You can get an adapter for almost any lens and make it work (like my FL/FD -> EOS)!
Canon even made an FD/EOS teleconverter at one time to support their FD owners







I just want to prove a point that all systems have their good and bad. It's the photographer who makes the difference. You can't blame a camera for its owner shortcoming :? :? :?

How about useable ISO-3200 (@ 1/6s) picture sound then? :G :G :G
http://img.dpreview.com/gallery/engi...olta7d_preview
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Old Nov 18, 2004, 1:26 PM   #17
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Hello guys, here I am again !! look, I am not against or pro Canon or Nikon, I am just putting my point of view, if they people don't want to discuss, shouldn't be at a forum website !!

I am comparing the D100 and 20D because I have both cameras!! I am not deciding to buy one or another, I owe both !! So, people just don't tell me to go to a Nikon forum cuz this is a non sense, hehehe !!! I am putting my point of view about 20D cuz it should be a much better camera than really is now, and for this price !! In this kind of middle market price camera, Canon still not satisfatory if you campare to Nikon!!

Yes, I agree tha lens can be broken, but what I mean is Canon is more fragile, that's why you watch a game and there is hundreds of fashion white lens....everybody has a taste huh ? My friend is having the worst nightmare with a Canon 100-400 L, sending back and forth to Canon, focus problems..oh gee!!

I have a 24-120 VR and a 70-200 VR 2.8, what a lens..I don't want even compare...but lens I think it's personal..and I agree if you a good photographer, good eye even with a disposal camera you will have good pictures!!



my angry is to buy a brand new 20D, pay a lot of money and do not even have a software to work with ? So, what I am paying ? Then have to spend more money to buy software, so you put this to the cost of camera!!!

My first 20D came defective, so I had to head to store, wait for 2 weeks for a replacement ! Never had same problem with nikon ! maybe it's just lucky !



About white balance, NHL it's totally wrong, this is a known issue for Canon, they admitted, so don't tell me that Canon white balance is good...even they know that's is terrible, doesn't even compare with my 3 year old D100 ....sucks..and a lot !!!

A D100 it's a 3 years old camera....now canon it's getting closer..just now!! and sorry, notthing in this world better than nikon compatibility..you can use old old good good manual lenses in digital nikon..what's best? no adaptors..nothing!



and c'mon, noise free in 20D ? haha.just must be a joke..never....visible noise at 1600 and 3200 even in 800 !! Most people make confusion, but what canon says is this 20D has lower noise than 10D, just 10D !! they are not comparing with other cameras! but to say that 20d has no noise..c'mon !!! D100 is excellent in low noise also, but the noise is there..to say that is not there is dumb !!!

And what I mean by design, it's not the material they use to build the body, it is really the design !! the project !! compare D100 and 20D and you will see what's design !! the feel !!!

and what do you think of Canon using the sharpness algorithim of their amateur cameras at 20d ? that sucks!!!

To finish this letter is, I am trying to like Canon, and we MUST complaing about the problems..cuz I pay for those cameras, and I think you guys also pay for that right ? So we must complaing, we are costumers and we want better product !! so they must improve!!!! But at the end I agree, your eyes makes the picture!! not the camera!


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Old Nov 24, 2004, 4:13 AM   #18
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The speed of the 20D vs. the D70 is certainly tempting. I'm hoping to finally find a local store with a 20D so I can see how the camera feels. Being used to and very comfortable with the ergonomics of Nikons, I'm interested to see how the Canon will feel.
I haven't done a lot of reading on the topic, but in various forums I've seen complaints about 'soft focus' problems with the 20D. I recall a number of threads about 'back focus' when the D70 came out, I'm just wondering if the problem is again being blown out of proportion somewhat (IMO) or if there is really a QC problem with the 20D.
As mentioned before, Nikon could certainly come up with a D100 replacement that matches or exceeds the 20D early next year. But from reading I've done Canon seems to have had lower noise vs. comparable Nikons for a while. Since I shoot mainly sports and often use high ISO the 20D seems like a great camera right now, I just don't know (nor does anyone else) how the next Nikon will compare.
I'm also curious about the Canon 1D, more resolution and FPS compared to the competing D1H, roughly same price now (i.e. about the cost of a 20D, but in a pro body).
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Old Nov 24, 2004, 9:06 AM   #19
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It's been said a few times on this thread in a nice way.

There are camera owners - and there are Photographers !

My business card says "Digital Photography" and it doesn't even mention the camera brand or color !
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Old Nov 24, 2004, 1:05 PM   #20
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Why not go really upmarket and get a Leicaflex:blah:
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