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Old Nov 15, 2004, 8:10 PM   #1
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NOTE: I also have this thread in the Nikon thread, trying to get more feedback.
I'm about to take the plunge with one or two 2.8 lenses for my D70. I do mostly sports, in particular auto racing during the spring and summer. Throughout the year I'm doing indoor (this time of year) and outdoor sports. Currently I have an el cheapo lens arrangement for my D70: 50 1.8, kit lens (18-70) and Sigma Macro II 70-300 APO. I also have an SB-28 flash, and still have a couple of N60 film bodies (one of which I hope to sell soon).
A friend who works at a local paper said he would be able to get me a good discount on lenses, so I'm anxious to order a Sigma 70-200 f2.8 HSM lens, and possibly another 2.8 (Tamron 28-75) for indoor sports like basketball.
It occured to me last week if I wanted to switch to Canon, now would be the time since I don't have a huge investment in Nikon stuff yet (well, besides the D70 body). When I cover a big-time race (i.e. Champ Cars in Portland), attend an event like college football or watch a sport on TV, I pay attention to what the pro photogs are using. As such, I've seen the number of white lenses being used. So that got me thinking.
Then I looked at lenses at B&H to get a feel for what equivalent Nikons and Canons cost. Yes, for now I'm looking at third party stuff but thinking about down the road, I might upgrade to Nikon or Canon stuff. It seems Canon lenses are either cheaper than similar Nikon or the same price but with an additional feature like IS or USM. In fact, when looking at all Canon lenses B&H sells I was impressed by the number that have USM (though it seems like I read there are two different types of Canon USM?).
I really like my D70, but for my uses it doesn't seem to be a particularly fast focusing camera when paired with a non AF-S or SWM lens. For most of the volleyball season I used my 50 1.8 lens and struggled getting in focus shots. Obviously that's not an ideal lens to use, but it got me to wondering if a similar Canon body would focus faster?
I like some of the specs of the Canon 20D compared to the D70, in particular the FPS, lower noise at high ISO levels, and faster focusing. Then again the camera is $500 more and likely won't be discounted anytime soon, at least not until Nikon comes out with the D100 replacement, whenever that will be.
I wouldn't want to go to the DRebel/300D because from what I've read it's a slower camera (including initial start-up) and I'm not that wild about the color or controls (I like the black one better, but that's the same price as the D70).
I've read plenty of posts on Nikon v. Canon, including a great discussion on DP Review about why many pros went from Nikon to Canon 10-15 years ago, and have come up with some pros and cons about switching:
Reasons to switch:
1. It seems Canon has been a step or so ahead of Nikon, in particular with regards to coming out with newer/more advanced products. See 300D (response was D70) and 10D/20D (D70/still waiting to see Nikon's response). Some feel Canon will continue to be the leader, while others feel Nikon will come out later but with a better product.
2. As I mentioned earlier, it seems Canon lenses are better values than similar Nikons, and are more likely to have features like USM. For example, both Nikon and Canon have 85/f 1.8 lenses for around $300; the Canon version has USM while the Nikon doesn't.
3. Many seem to feel Canons have better sensors, which to me would mean faster/better focusing. In all fairness, I haven't shot with a Canon so I can't say how I like the Canon focusing compared to my D70.
4. Also as mentioned earlier, it's pretty noticable how many pros seem to be shooting Canon as opposed to Nikon. Not that it's 99% vs. 1% of the market by any means, it's just Canon seems to be preferred and most everything I've read confirms that observation.
5. I've read, mainly from Nikon users, about the 'arrogance' of Nikon and some subpar service stories.
Okay, now reasons to NOT switch:
1. Seems to be consensus the Nikon flash system is better than Canon's, and has been better for a while. With a 2.8 lens, however, that becomes less of a factor.
2. Having used two N60 film cameras before the D70, I am familiar with Nikon ergonomics and am quite satisfied in that respect. I really like how the D70 feels, and it doesn't take long to make necessary changes. I haven't even held a 20D yet. I briefly held a friend's pool camera (may have been 10D, not sure) and didn't feel too bad. I've also held his 300D and I wasn't really impressed.
3. By and large, I have been pleased with Nikon's reliability. I've taken thousands of shots with the D70 and haven't had it quit on me. Not to say I feel a Canon would be unreliable, just that I've had pretty good luck with Nikon.
4. The D70 showed that a Nikon response to a Canon product could indeed be worth the wait.
5. Sorry, I like black. I don't care much for white lenses. Not that I would be using a white Canon lens for a while, but once I get to the point of buying a top quality lens, I cringe at the thought of having a white lens.

Any comments, suggestions, insights etc. would be much appreciated. Thanks!
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Old Nov 15, 2004, 9:13 PM   #2
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Have all three! and don't worry anymore... :-):-):-)

Really I was a Canon users for quite a long time until AF come along and I switched to Minolta (their antique camera's AF still focus to f/6.7) and they had the 1st wireless flash system as well.
I changed back to Canon since it seems like a good thing to do with the coming of the 10D two years ago so I jumped on the bandwagon. Last year however I add a used F5 to my collection just because I couldn't resist the price and started to buy some basic lenses.

IMO dSLRs are like films, every year there'll be a new 'emulsion' to try. If you talk to a Canon guy, he'll think he has the best and vice versa with a Nikon fan... What makes the difference is 'you' the photographer not the lenses nor the cameras

Now I'm torn between the 20D and the Minolta 7D, but we never know what Nikon has up its sleeve either !!! :G :G :G
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Old Nov 15, 2004, 11:18 PM   #3
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Thanks for the response, NHL. But I don't think buying into three systems will be my solution. :G
One thing I've become increasingly aware of is high ISO performance, since that's what I find myself using more and more. It seems the 20D has much less noise at ISO 1600 than the D70. In looking through some of my D70 shots at 1600, the noise was pretty noticeable, especially when one of my pics was published in B&W last week. :O
I'd like to think the D100 replacement will compete with the 20D in regards to noise, but a) that could be a long wait, while I shoot 2-3 games a week and b) there's certainly no guarantee the 20D will be matched--in other words, I could be waiting for nothing. I shot soccer last weekend (Nov. 6), my friend with the Canon pool camera and Sigma 70-200 HSM 2.8 shot the same game at 1600 ISO no flash, and got nice clean shots.
On the other hand, when using flash that 1/500 flash sync rate on the D70 sure is handy.
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Old Nov 16, 2004, 4:58 AM   #4
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murphyc wrote:
Quote:
... It seems the 20D has much less noise at ISO 1600 than the D70. In looking through some of my D70 shots at 1600, the noise was pretty noticeable, especially when one of my pics was published in B&W last week. :O
I'd like to think the D100 replacement will compete with the 20D in regards to noise, but a) that could be a long wait...
There's always the 3rd option, available now! :idea:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...nolta-7d.shtml

The Minolta 7D consistently beats the 20D in noise by a decimal point according to that DXO lab chart :-)
Mr. Reichmann didn't know at the time how to set the 7D to ISO-3200, but on dpreview you can examine the shots @ ISO-3200 handheld at 1/6s!!! http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/?gal...lta7d_preview/

You're wondering about your future with IS/VR, just imagine: With the 'Anti-Shake' built into the camera all your lenses will be IS/VR'ed. Even the wide angle lenses that no one has perfected yet - the 8th pictures in the dark church from dpReview (hint: low-light weddings when the parties are standing still). All you need is to buy one 70-200 f/2.8 in either IS or VR and the cost differential of this one lens alone will more than offset the price of the Minolta 7D. Think about all the saving in lenses, BTW Minolta also have ultrasonic lenses called SSM and their 'L' version is called "G" of the 70-200 f/2.8 outperforms both Canon and Nikon according to this: http://www.photozone.de/2Equipment/easytxt.htm#Ztelef
... and of course you'll have all the Sigma's HSM to choose from (now all IS/VR'ed)!!!

The 6Mp vs the 8Mp is what makes me 'undecided', you have to ask yourself do I need 8Mp? I didn't need it with my 10D, but 8Mp sure is nice (and to brag too)... Minolta changed the AF landscape some 20 years ago and they may do it again: http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/h...991_story.html

This is what Canon had: the AF was in each lens instead of the body
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography...SLRs/canont80/






Nikon was quick to react back then, let just see if history might repeat itself :?:

OOoops I think, I just convinced myself into getting the Minolta! May be it's just that 'HUGE' rear LCD that the camera has on its back :G :G :G
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Old Nov 16, 2004, 10:53 AM   #5
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Murph-

For what it is worth. Started out with a Kodak 260, then Canon S30 Sureshot, then Nikon 5700.

Daughter trains Arabian horses. She got me into shooting horse shows. OK, got a Canon 300D. Bought 3 basic lenses (18/55,28/135 and a 100/400L)

Part of horses is to capture just the right instant in their stride. 300D limited to 4 frames and small buffer. The obvious- handed off my 300D to wife and got a 20D

WHICH IS WHERE INEED TO BE, TO GET THE JOB DONE RIGHT.

Canon advertises the 20D as having what the Pros need and what the Semi-pros want. As far as I'm concerned- they are right.

What the heck I've only been shooting for 40+ years so I gotta lot to learn, but I am getting closer !!
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Old Nov 16, 2004, 12:10 PM   #6
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When I purchased my 10D, I had no AF capable equipment. So I didn't have the cost issue of resale.

My logic was basically this. Camera bodies will be replaced every so often. Newer better ones will appear and eventually I'll upgrade... every 2-5 years? Maybe more? I don't know. And how knows who will have the best body at that time.

But lense. Now lenses will last 20 years if you get a good one. So I looked seriously at what type of photography I will do (nature/bird shots) and looked at what lenses will let me do that well. And I found that the Canon lenses are as good as the Nikon, but cheaper (by upwards of $1,000!), and had IS. And in the case of the cheaper zoom (80-400 VR vs. the 100-400 IS) the Canon has a MUCH better USM motor than Nikon's AF-S motor in that lens. So I went with Canon.

There is another thing you should think about, though. If you have been using Nikon for awhile, you have experience/knowledge that you will be giving up. Things like how the metering system works or situations where the AF works better or worse. That kinda stuff. Stuff that you learn by doing. And all that will be out the window.

I generally have heard that even with ETTL-2, Nikon still has the better flash system.

Another potential is if you want to upgrade the body and keep your lenses (stick with Nikon lenses, that is) is to get the Fuji S2 Pro (or the S3 Pro when it comes out.) I don't think it's AF matches the 20D, but it is a better camera than the D70 or D100 in many ways.

Eric
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Old Nov 16, 2004, 1:58 PM   #7
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Thanks for the excellent responses so far, keep them coming!
NHL, thanks for the link to the Minolta review. One of the reasons I was thinking of switching from Nikon to Canon was the increased speed of the 20D, both in focusing speed and fps. I do mainly sports, so I need a fast camera. From the limited amount I've read, I don't see the Minolta as being deemed faster than the D70. Plus I use the top LCD display pretty often (Minolta doesn't have it), I didn't have a real good experience with my previous Minolta (Z1), and since the camera is new I don't know enough about it yet to make a switch. That AS does sound cool, though.
As I mentioned in this post in the Nikon section, I'm now thinking of getting a D1H since they are pretty cheap now (brand new, actually cheaper than 20D). Fast camera, relatively low noise, and solid build. Lower megapixels and battery life, but it is a tempting idea.
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Old Nov 16, 2004, 8:24 PM   #8
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If you don't make large prints, the D1H might be a very good choice. They are very good cameras, even if old.

Eric
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Old Nov 17, 2004, 12:47 PM   #9
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I have some comments to do . I was a nikon D100 user, more than excellent camera, using a 24-120mm VR lenses, a big and nice deal and decided to exchange for a 20D. Look, if you are used to nikon already, do not switch to canon. Canon has no design, Nikon beats Canon 100 times, the Canon software sucks as hell, trust me, it's far the worst software I've never seen before, the Nikon Capture Editor it's excellent, using it I forgot about photoshop. THe Canon 20d Files still not recognized by photoshop or phase one C1, so for now you have to use the canon software, which is a bag of shi... !! The focus of 20D is fast, but never accurate as Nikon, you will lose many pictures!! The 20D white balance is the worst ever for all cameras, specially with incadenscent light...Nikon is 10 years-light ahead of Canon in terms of White Balance, not even talking about flash. I think the 20D it's just a good camera, but look, just good. People say the Nikon doesn't give the answer for the 10d or 20D or 300d, all this is bullsh....Nikon released the D100 2 years and half ago, just one model, unique, and Canon had to release4 models (d30, d60, 10d and 20d) to get at same level of the unique D100, and even losing at flash and white balance far behind. Nikon released the d70 just to do a little update for D100, and they are the best still. CAnon still using the amateur software code for sharpness in 20d, how ? Tell me how? So, this 20d it's just a good camera, not a WOW, just normal and good..nothing else, and should it cost about 1000 max..because it not that much they are trying to add outside...so..if you look, the price of the 20d it's already dropping !!

About the lenses, the white bla bla lenses of canon is good, but the good good ones are so expensive as nikon, with one exception, more fragile. My friend lost 2 of this white fashion lens, I had my nikon one, dropped twice and working as new...his, had to send back to Canon 4 times..forget..never more will be the same, and fashion a part, black lens is classic, if you go to streets to shoot, you don't want to be seen with white lens..of by some animal in the jungle..c'mon !

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"Keep your nikon stuff, I am going back to Nikon, and thanks good to Nikon to be arrogant and bla bla bla, but what can they do, they still the best!!
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Old Nov 17, 2004, 6:41 PM   #10
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I agree with you on several points (like Canon's software is bad), but one I have to completely disagree with one point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afocante
About the lenses, the white bla bla lenses of canon is good, but the good good ones are so expensive as nikon, with one exception, more fragile.
I am sorry, but Canon's "good good" lenses are cheaper than Nikons in almost every case. Just look at B&H photo, one of the best resellers of photo gear (the largest single store seller in the entire US, I believe.)

Here is a list of prices from B&H on what I would consider the "good good" lenses from Canon and Nikon. This is all in US Dollars.

_______________________Canon_________Nikon
300mm f2.8 IS_______$ 3,899.95_____$ 4,399.95
300mm f4 IS_________$ 1,149.95_____$ 1,099.95
400mm f2.8 IS_______$ 6,499.95_____$ 7,699.95
500mm f4 IS_________$ 5,499.95_____$ 7,199.95
600mm f4 IS_________$ 6,899.95_____$ 8,999.95
100-400 f4.5-5.6 IS__$ 1,409.95_____$ 1,429.95
70-200 f2.8 IS_______$ 1,649.95_____$ 1,599.95

Canon is cheaper every time but twice, and every one of those has IS, whereas with Nikon only the last two have VR. And look at the 600mm, that is a $2100 difference.

As to Canon being more fragile. I truly don't know. I've only ever dropped a lens... once and it was on grass. Works fine. You don't mention things like the lateast VR lense that Nikon put out (24-120 VR), I know one person who had to return 3 of them and a store that just sent back about 10 in the first shipment because they all had problems (AF and/or VR related.)

How many 20D's have you tried? You talk like an expert when you say that the AF mis-focuses. There are a lot of people who take in focus pictures with the 20D, so if you had problems I'm sory but it doesn't seem to be the pandemic like you make it out to be.

But fundamentally I agree. If you already have some lenses and you aren't flush with money, then stick with Nikon. They both make good products. It is rare that you can't get as good a picture with both systems.

Eric
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