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Old Dec 25, 2004, 11:57 AM   #1
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I currently have a Conon Drebel and have been thinking of upgrading to 20d. Would you recommend upgrading lens first to L-series lens or upgrading 300d to 20D.

Which will I see more improvement to actual photos better lens or better camera?

I have the 580EX flash, 18-55 kit 55-200, and 50 1.8. I am think ing of picking up the Canon 70-200 F4L as my first L-series lens. If I upgraded to Canon 20D with my same set of lenses wouldn't I get the same photo quality?

Please help before I wast more money.
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Old Dec 25, 2004, 1:25 PM   #2
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The 20D will give you a lot more speed and flexibility than the DRebel, but good quality lenses contribute more to image quality than anything else you can do, except for practice. Have you outgrown your DRebel?

No equipment can replace good photography. I'm doing better than I used to, because I'm using more of my camera's features and settings and improving my post processing.

BTW, the next lens for my 20D will be a 70-200 f4.
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Old Dec 25, 2004, 1:26 PM   #3
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"Which will I see more improvement to actual photos better lens or better camera?"

are we talking content or just sharp images. without relative content you still have nothing.

Practice and Technique. both of these will overcome 98% of photographic obstacles. better gear is only a very small part of the equation. if a faster lens is needed or a wider or longer view is wanted thats different. its the user not the gear
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Old Dec 25, 2004, 2:30 PM   #4
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What are you unable to do with your current gear? That is what should guide your choice.

If you are money oriented (I can be very much so) then an L lens will last you a lot longer than a new camera body. At the same time, if you need more frames per second no lens will give you that.

Bigger prints are a toss up. The higher resolution will help with larger prints but if your pictures are soft because of lack of lens sharpness then a better camera won't help.

AF speed is also a tossup. The 20D certainly has a better AF system. But a lens with a larger aperture will focus better because it will have a shallower DOF when wide open which helps with putting the subject in the DOF. A higher quality lens will show a more contrasty image which also gets you better AF. I bet the 20D will help more, but a good lens will help.

Please tell is what you want to "fix" or improve and we should be able to help you more.

Eric
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Old Dec 26, 2004, 2:40 AM   #5
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I think maybe I am outgrowing camera, "because" I will often get a good shot next to a dark shot next to a blurry shot, etc. I don't know if's the camera speed, or focusing speed. My shots when shooting non-studio vary in exposure quite a bit even when using 580ex flash. I have had my best run yet at family Christmas party using the catch light card and bouncing flash. But I still miss shots when action is too fast. Plus bouncing the flash this really slow flash recycle speed, so I'm sometime not ready.

In studio I always use manual a set with light meter "Great". But when shooting live action like fashion shows or parties the Rebel seems unpredicatable. Sometimes shots come outbut they are too soft not sharp like with good lighting and high shutter. The 4 shot burst with rebel is a pain also, not a show stopper though if I could get all four to come out. With 420ex flash the fourth shot in burst was almost always bad. This still happens with 580ex when batteries start to get low.

Ultimate goal is getting the shot possibly faster lens, and sharp artisticimages that will sell. I don't know how much better 70-200 f4L will be on Rebel than 55-200 or 18-55 kit. I think better in terms of faster focusing and sharper images. With 580EX I don't think I will need 2.8L yet. But maybe 17-40L and 70-200 F4L, then 20D after prices drop.

This was shot with 18-55 [email protected] F5.0, ISO100 1/60 with 580 ex bounced. No editing other than resize in Photoshop CS.

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Old Dec 26, 2004, 8:01 AM   #6
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Ahh, this helps a lot.

The 20D will help you in several ways (but not give you everything.)

The type of AF you need (lower light) will certainly be helped by the 20D. As will the faster burst shooting (but also get the fatest CF card you can get as it will use it and they are much cheaper now.)

In theory the ETTL-2 that the 20D has should help as well. I've heard mixed things about how well it works, though.

Unfortunately it won't help for sharp pictures (other than being more in focus.) That is probably the result of your lens. In the end you're going to need a better lens as well. Start saving. But I bet you'll see more of an improvement with the 20D. If you live in a large enough town, you can probably rent a good lens to give it a try. That might help.

The flash is another issue. To solve that you probably need an external battery pack. They are designed for exactly what you are doing; really fast recharge time. The most popular choices are the "digital camera battery" and one of the Quantum lines (probably the Turbo Z, but they might have a newer model now.)

For a review, check here:
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/con...id=7-4059-4084

Note that this is a bit old. The DCB now has a 10W larger capacity across the board.

To me, the DCB is more designed for longer term use in trade for their slightly longer size. I'm not sure which I'd by myself.

Eric
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Old Dec 26, 2004, 8:06 PM   #7
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minutephotos.com wrote:
Quote:
I think maybe I am outgrowing camera, "because" I will often get a good shot next to a dark shot next to a blurry shot, etc. I don't know if's the camera speed, or focusing speed. My shots when shooting non-studio vary in exposure quite a bit even when using 580ex flash. I have had my best run yet at family Christmas party using the catch light card and bouncing flash. But I still miss shots when action is too fast. Plus bouncing the flash this really slow flash recycle speed, so I'm sometime not ready.

In studio I always use manual a set with light meter "Great". But when shooting live action like fashion shows or parties the Rebel seems unpredicatable. Sometimes shots come outbut they are too soft not sharp like with good lighting and high shutter. The 4 shot burst with rebel is a pain also, not a show stopper though if I could get all four to come out. With 420ex flash the fourth shot in burst was almost always bad. This still happens with 580ex when batteries start to get low.

Ultimate goal is getting the shot possibly faster lens, and sharp artisticimages that will sell. I don't know how much better 70-200 f4L will be on Rebel than 55-200 or 18-55 kit. I think better in terms of faster focusing and sharper images. With 580EX I don't think I will need 2.8L yet. But maybe 17-40L and 70-200 F4L, then 20D after prices drop.

This was shot with 18-55 [email protected] F5.0, ISO100 1/60 with 580 ex bounced. No editing other than resize in Photoshop CS.

go to this site and see if any of the info helps. itsthe canon learning centerat:

http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/lessons/index.html

the AF system can be somewhat challenging at times. learning to tame it and work with it is the key. that will then help lessen the dreaded OOF. they are not totally prevenable though.

i will say that trying a multi shot/multi burst flash combo with a 420ex flash even with my 1Dmk2 would get much better at the forth shot. that strobe w/AA batts in it cannot recycle that fast. when i shoot in a situation that requires some HD flash on camera i will have a slightly more capable flash. a 580ex will pop off multiple shots at full ad perfome better then most. but don't expect it to do it on AA batts. you learn to range your shots. the shorter the distance the less power used and the caps don't use all of it allowing for a series of equivelent bursts. keeping the caps topped off is another issue. i don't care how powerful a AA battery set you got. on the side of the 550ex and 580ex. there is a HV input. thats a main line straight to the caps at 330vdc. that will maintain your shooting light quite well for most of the range and at max generally keep the recycle time down to about 1.75sec for some external battery packs until you melt the front end off the flash which can and has happened.

admittedly in some cases more capable technology is a plus and brute force can work to. as ericeluded toyou have decisions to make.

i have a 3 year old well used DCB 30w which was just updated with the new 40w BP. i live by it. it powers both camera and flash in various challenging/inclement conditions like sub 0F work and such.

E-TTLs is a definate plus vs the original E-TTL. it is a process in camera and then supported by the flash. it almost works as good now as my nikon flash system did 10yrs ago. sorry canon fell well short on artificial light control against nikon. only now are they waking up.
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Old Dec 26, 2004, 10:34 PM   #8
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One additional thing needs to be considered in moving to the 20D from a Digital Rebel if you are planning to keep your current lens set.

None of those three lenses you use (18-55, 55-200, 50/1.8) uses the RING USM motor. One of the components in the new ETTL II flash calculation is focus distance being comunicated to the system, and guess what- only lenses with RING USM can communicate that information. Micro motors don't do it- MICRO USM lenses don't even do it, so you need lenses with the RING USM motors to utilize the ETTL II system to its' fullest.
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Old Dec 26, 2004, 10:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
so you need lenses with the RING USM motors to utilize the ETTL II system to its' fullest
It was always my plan to get better lenses and then upgrade to a better camera later. So based on all the info I a soaking in I think my next purchases will be the Canon 70-200 F4L and the Canon Cp-E3 power pack for flash.

The F4L does have the Ring USM and seems to be an overall better lens and definate upgrade to my current 55-200 lens. I will hold off on 20D until a specific need other that speed comes up. I would rather have sharper images than a faster camera.

PS

I went to the camera store today and tested out a 20D, Man it is FAST. But, it had the same focusingproblems with the 18-55 kit lens as I have on Drebel.

Thanks
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Old Dec 26, 2004, 11:53 PM   #10
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I have the Rebel and if I were to keep any lens that I now have to work well in general situations with the Rebel it would be the 85/1.8. It's fast, sharp, and works nicely in a number of different situations. It's also one that can be purchased second hand for a very reasonable price. One needs to do a bit of footwork because it isn't a zoom but you can't have everything unless you are willing to pay for it.
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