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Old Feb 22, 2005, 3:04 PM   #11
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May I suggest a 3rd category?

The cameras collectors... talking about obsession!
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Old Feb 22, 2005, 7:38 PM   #12
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Ho-Boy talk about an expensive habit.

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The cameras collectors... talking about obsession!
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Old Feb 22, 2005, 10:15 PM   #13
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I have just re-entered the world of hobby photography after a near 20 year hiatus. I had a fully manual Pentax MX with a nice zoom lens and had a blast with it during my college days. A trip to Mexico and a spilled bottle of Kahlua put an end to my Pentax after about 6 months of use. The years in between resulted in another manual 35 (a vivatar) that I used for my honeymoon and little else. After my daughter was born in 98, I picked up an Olympus 1.3mp P&S - but with no zoom and little resolution it served mainly as a tool to record family moments.

This Christmas, I treated myself to a Canon S1 and the fun of creative photography has returned! I have taken some great shots and carry it nearly everywhere now. The adjustable settings have really re-educated me on ISO, aperture, shutter speed and even hyperfocal settings. I shoot mostly in "P" mode and play with ISO, exposure compensation and white balance settings. I have quickly however become frustrated with the focus speed, low light focusing abilityand somewhat limited resolution and realized that I needed a DSLR to really get back into the hobby. At my price range I was torn between the "Old" Rebel" and the Olympus E300 - the Rebel did not feel "solid" or heavy enough for my liking.

Well working on a very tight budget, I talked the wife into it and a "new" (factory demo) 10D is on it's way! I have coupled it with a used Canon EF 28-70 3.5-4.5 mkll for the time being. For just under $900 I feel that I have a "real" tool that will do this hobby justice. Aside from a "Nifty 50" and perhaps a decent 70-300, I do not forsee any desire to upgrade my equipment any time soon.
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Old Feb 22, 2005, 11:01 PM   #14
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Who do you mean by We???

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Old Feb 22, 2005, 11:40 PM   #15
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I am sure it is a guy thing. Always trying to outdo the other with better resources. Most guys like electronic gadgets and doo-dads. It is exciting for them. I am obsessed with the XT and 20D because it is fast. I hate waiting like 5 seconds for my prosumer P&S to *try* to focus on the subject and then give up and show me an amber, out of focus indicator. I like how the XT and 20D can start up lightning fast so that I don't miss a shot, and how everything works faster, processing, writing, etc. Although this argues in favour of how our society is moving towards instant gratification, about not taking time to think and experience the world and to satisfy our hungers now and not yesterday, it speaks volumes about human nature.
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Old Feb 23, 2005, 2:20 AM   #16
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NHL wrote:
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May I suggest a 3rd category?

The cameras collectors... talking about obsession!
Now there's a thought.

I wonder . . . which among today's digital cameras do you all think will be the most desirable collector's items in 50 or 75 years?
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Old Feb 23, 2005, 7:30 AM   #17
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Amateur wrote:
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NHL wrote:
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May I suggest a 3rd category?

The cameras collectors... talking about obsession!
Now there's a thought.

I wonder . . . which among today's digital cameras do you all think will be the most desirable collector's items in 50 or 75 years?
I'm also a watch collector... you can't really collect a 'digital' appliance, they tend to follow 'Moore Law' and go out of style in 6 month time... (plus because of the nature of electronics they must be built in high volume to lower the integration cost of their ICs - hence they tend to be mass-market merchandises)

Now mechanical devices such as an old Canon/Bell&Howell 1/2 frame point and shoot (Canon wasn't such a big name then) is a piece of beauty -> Open one up sometime and marvel @ their inner working rather than the latest specs sheets. The motor drive was actually a mechanical winding spring built-into the handle of this camera... and there are many others with extremely 'internal' clever ideas that make photography such an enjoyable hobby (vs my Nikon is better than your Canon) :?

A Contax N1 may be an exception if one can find the rare digital back to replace it's 35mm film plate :idea:
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Old Feb 25, 2005, 11:33 PM   #18
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mf_blues wrote:
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We're always told it's the lense that is important, yes there's the camera features to take into account but how many people really use more than Fully Auto or Programmed Mode. I know creative modes give you more artistic license, I use manual mode now more than any other but most people just seem to point and shoot.
I haven't read everyone's thread since the original post, but I do believe someone on this forum used the analogy of, "great shot, what camera did you use?" to "great food, what pan did you cook it in?" or something similar. There is even a website dedicated to placing photographers in different categories depending on how they view the technology of photography compared to the art. And I do agree, that the final picture is the most important thing.

But.....now that digital is upon us and mainstream, things are a bit different. Above Mr. mf stated "We're always told it's the lense that is important", that was true when we had 35mm cameras with very high quality. Now we have digital cameras that don't have the quality of 35mm film, until Canon's latest 16.6mp camera came out (and we won't talk about those $20k foveons and the like). I am a woman, who was never crazy about technology, and now I read the digital photography magazines like Harlequins! This is a very exciting time, probably since the industrial revolution. Technology is advancing in leaps and bounds, and there is so much of it, which is why these forums are invaluable. In "the old days" everything you needed to know was in a book, or taken in a class. Technology is moving so fast they can't put it into books before it becomes out dated. But now with computer programs like photoshop coupled with digital cameras and some ingenuity, we have people that are the Picassos of the 21 century. They experiment and will probably come up with things that one day will be fixtures of computer programs and equipment in general. And like most great artists, we will probably never know their names, but our grandchildren will.

In risk of getting away from myself, I would find someone not interested in the technology to be the odd man/person out. I think we all find it fascinating coupled with our love for photography. And, I can't imagine the majority of DSLR owners are point n shooters ("but most people just seem to point and shoot"). I am sure that the majority of us have used 35mm cameras before. Of course in todays day and age you can get a consumer camera (or a prosumer camera) and it will take great pictures, i think there you will find your point n shooters. And it does feel great to set your camera on auto and shoot away, but even the best camera will fail on a black background, or white. So everyone will need to do some adjusting.

One more point about the technology. Before digital I had a 35mm camera, manual focus. If someone was running at me, I could change focus and shoot at the same time. I know the Canon's are good at doing that, but most cameras aren't. My point is, the main idea is to get the shot, the shot that you visualize, or the shot that is there in the viewfinder, so you need to push that shutter down and get the shot before you miss it. But what about shutter lag??? Now technology is much better, but we have been waiting for the technology, which is why we get caught up in it. We do it out of necessity. A candid photographer now can do great work with digital photography, that wasn't true a couple of years ago. A nature photographer or a scenic photographer would much rather shoot film for the quality, but that is changing. The important thing is getting the shot but what if we can't? These forums and photographers everywhere provide the camera companies with complaints so that they can improve digital photography that will surpass 35mm quality. Next up is surpassing medium format and then large format film cameras. I think film will always be around, it is a different medium, but photography is changing so rapidly and we are here on these forums like historians and history makers.

While there are many people out there just simply learning photography, there are others who are much closer to mastering the understanding of photography, how light affects the image i.e the zone system, and art itself. For these people, the new technology allows them to take better pictures, to communicate their vision. Like with the advent of cell phones and the internet, people now can communicate quicker thereby making business deals faster, transmitting the news instantaneously, saving time thereby having more time to do more things (hopefully this time will help the advancement of our civilization). Think about the horror of the pastTsunami and how Hawaii knew it was coming but simply couldn't communicate it, and I am sure that catastrophic disasters have already been averted because of technology. While I think it is important to concentrate on the art of photography, we should embrace the technology, and use our knowledge, convey it to each other and to the camera companies to keep improving on some already amazing things. Sorry this was so choppy, guys I am doing about three jobs at once!
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Old Feb 26, 2005, 3:41 AM   #19
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Yes, the comment about pots & pans being to food what camera and lens is to photograph isn't quite right. I would suggest pots & pans & ingredients are to food what camera and lens is to photograph. No-one would find it odd to say "Lovely dish - what spices did you use?"

I think that film will soon be gone, the only barrier at the moment is the price of large CCD/CMOS chips. My own take is that at the moment per square mm the resolution and grain/noise of the CCDs has surpassed film, and at high ISO values has surpassed film by a huge margin.

For someone who's mostly interested in landscapes like myself, the forthcoming Mamiya ZD medium format digital is very interesting. Of course for hobbyists the price is somewhat prohibitive because those CCD's cost in the region of $5000 to make, so the camera prices are astronomical. There is little to suggest either that economies of scale would bring that down very much. Big silicon is expensive because yields are low and failure rates are high on large chips. Additionally the prospect of selling millions of medium format chips are remote. For professionals however the cost of film is so high that even medium format CCDs pay for themselves in less than a year and at higher quality.

For the rest of us - well Nikon have just demonstrated that they can get 12.7 megapixel resolution with fantastic detail at the cost of maybe 1 f-stop's worth of noise on a sensor roughly APS-C sized.

http://www.naturfotograf.com/index2.html

And please my intention with that link is not to start some kind of Nikon v Canon issue, in which frankly I have no interest. The point is that today's state-of-the-art in digital technology is mainstream in 3 years.

That suggests that the end road of where we can expect the 20D equivalent to go (in perhaps 3-4 years) is at least 12 megapixels. A 12 megapixel 20D seems like a stunning prospect; combined with NR & Fractal Upres technologies it may be that in practical terms even enthusiasts could never claim that they really need anything more. There is little practical limit on how large a print one could make. One might ask whether the same point could be made about an 8 megapixel image. Probably yes, but I do find that with landscape work sometimes in processing I find a much better picture by cropping - that for me is the only reason I would want more pixels. If I can make a substantial crop and still end up with 8 megapixels I'll be a happy chap. :-)

EF-S lenses may have a great deal of mileage in them.

Forgive the ramblings, but it seems like a good thread for it.
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