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Old Aug 30, 2005, 5:24 PM   #11
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Adobe CS2 HDR is a software-only answer for stills with high dynamic range.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/hdr.shtml
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Old Aug 30, 2005, 6:57 PM   #12
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PeterP wrote:
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The current MF Mamya and Blad have a 36*48mm sensor and output @ 22mp.
And they do it with a 11-stop range:!: The dslr's are still stuck at the 3-4 stop range of slide film.
The Kodak DCS Pro 720xhad a 9 stop dynamic range (or so Kodak claimed), with usable ISO speeds to 6400 (although only calibrated to ISO 4000).

Resolution aside, I still think the photos from this model look better than any model Stevehas ever reviewed. Kodak did a terrific job on the sensor (and it's raw conversion software was pretty decent, too).

Even Rob Galbraith's ISO 6400 images clean up well with modern tools (I ran one through Noiseware as a test).

Awesome (and this was a 1.6x crop sensor).

If this thing wasn't so darn large and heavy, I'd buy one on the used market. I came pretty close to pressing the "buy" button a while back when I saw one at a bargain price. But, I came to my senses as I wouldn't want to lug one around.

I wish they'd hire the engineers back that developed this sensor, make it larger (since it's only 2MP), and stuff it into a smaller and lighter DSLR (but not at the price of the older 720x). LOL

Look at these photos... Nice, huh?

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_...x_samples.html


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Old Aug 30, 2005, 7:44 PM   #13
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Yup, basically what I am getting at, it can be done.

All my lenses are Canon EF mount, and I still have a pile of FD mount and even a few Pentax screw mounts :-)
So I don't really want to buy into another system:G just to start collecting again. But if a mainstream manfacturer came out with a contemporary version, I'd be tempted to make the addition.
Trouble is HDR dosen't sell consumer cameras, Megapixels seem to do that

Madwand:
Yes, I have PS CS2 and have been playing with the HDR merge. It works but you have to plan for it, and (the hard part) remember to take multiple bracketed exposures at the same F-stop of each scene. All without bumping the tripod.

Peter.
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Old Aug 30, 2005, 8:01 PM   #14
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PeterP wrote:
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Yup, basically what I am getting at, it can be done.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see why not. The 2MP sensor used in this Kodak 720x model was developed 5 years ago. Since it's a 1.6x crop sensor, if they just made it full frame, that should give you what, about 5MP with the increase in surface area?

Given newer microlens technology to better focus the light on the photosites, they should be able to increase it to even higherresolution than that now, too.

Sure, they'd have to make the supporting electronics work with it. But, hasn't technology advanced just a little bit over the years since this sensor was developed?

Ditto for image processing. The images look super from this model using older tools. Imagine what they could do with it today (if they tried).

I vote that they hire the engineers that developed it back again (if they are still available), use it as a model, improve it using newer technology and give it to us at a decent price. :-)

Perhaps price is the whole problem (it may be cost prohibitive to do). Engineers feel free to chime in and tell us why they can't do it. LOL

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Old Aug 31, 2005, 7:29 AM   #15
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There's more to it:http://www.shutterbug.net/features/0601sb_pro/ :idea:
... and some background info: http://www.ltlimagery.com/film_v_digital.html

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Old Aug 31, 2005, 1:34 PM   #16
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Good articles. One is a bit dated though, it is still very good info.
Peter.
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Old Sep 3, 2005, 7:57 PM   #17
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You may or may not know -- Canon Japan has posted some sample 5D images (in JPEG).

What you can conclude from these images is debatable, but I'd like to mention that you can download them, and then look at the full size images in your image editor, manipulate them, print them, etc., to get you a little better sense of what the imagesthe 5Dproduces might be like, and what impact, if any, that additional size has for you.You could for example cropthem down by 1/1.6 to get a sense of what the view from a 20d/etc. would be..

I'm not claiming that those images or their manipulations would be conclusive; I see this as "for fun" mostly, with some information potential.

http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/eos5d/ht...sample_1e.html


(I'm sure that there'll be lots and lots of talk about full frame lens performance at the edges, but I don't think I'll get into it. You can see problems with the landscape image edges at 100% (and below too). While I can devise some clever rationalizations as to why I shouldn't get it (it's really not hard -- e.g. reduce mortage and reduce interest expense, or buy camera and blow funds on depreciation? doh!), I don't think poorer lens performance at edges (no secret) would do it for me -- I'd still want it, though I might not want to pay so much for it.)
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Old Dec 9, 2005, 9:36 AM   #18
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NHL wrote:
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PeterP wrote:
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The current MF Mamya and Blad have a 36*48mm sensor and output @ 22mp.
And they do it with a 11-stop range:!: The dslr's are still stuck at the 3-4 stop range of slide film...
Isn't the Fuji a 10-stop dynamic range dSLR?
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fuji...pro/page18.asp
NHL:

Since I remembered discussing Dynamic Range a while back in this thread, I searched for it.

You may find Dave Etchell's Imatest Results for the KM 5D interesting when shooting in raw and using ACR to convert them.

BTW, I can vouch for his results (pulling back detail from highlights using ACR).

I've taken some shots in JPEG+RAW where the highlights were totally blown in the camera produced JPEG, that were perfectly recoverable using ACR to convert the raw file.

No, it doesn' match the Fuji S3 Pro. But, it's getting close (and you can buy this camera for about $600, before rebates -- or less with some of the recent deals I've seen on it). LOL
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 9:44 AM   #19
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ADSchiller wrote:
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A 5D will have a 24x36 mm sensor (864 square mm.) and 12.8 megapixels orabout 14,815 pixels/sq.mm. A 20D has a 22x15 sensor (330 sq. mm.) and 8.2 megapizels or about24,848 pixels/sq. mm.
Your math is correct. If you crop a 5D image to the 1.6 factor, it will be 4.8MP, compared to 8.2 on the 20D. If you can change lenses to get the same FOV in the 5D as you would get in the 20D, the 5D image will almost certainly have better detail and lower noise. The 5D sensor's improved noise and dynamic range, along with the higher resolution, give it the edge in studio portraits, landscapes, and other wide to normal to moderate tele shots.

If, on the other hand, you are a nature shooter already using a 500mm plus 1.4x extender on your 20D (1120mm FF equivalent FOV), thenswitching toa longer lens for your 5D may be a bit expensive. To maintain the 5D advantage, and get a 12MP image, you need a 600mm and 2x extender. And...I'm not sure the extra pixels would fully compensate for having the use the full 2X-extended frame.

This is the reasonnature shooters are flocking (pun intended) to the Nikon D2x and hoping that Nikon will come through with the promised 500 and 600 VR lenses soon!

Canon has long been steered by its marketing executives, who are really good at predicting and influencing the public (look at the white L lenses--a brilliantmarketing gimmick). Frankly, I think the 5D was designed to take advantage of (1) Canon's excess CMOS manufacturing capacity and (2) the perception of [financially able] amateurs that they need FF for good pictures.

Nikon, on the other hand, has a long history of disregard for, and refusal to cater to, the general public. That companay also does not have its own sensor manufacturing facilities. An objective analysis of the state of digital photography, would say that the technology continues to improve with higher density, lower noise sensors. The potential advantage of that technology to photographers is smaller, lighter, longer reach cameras and lenses. Nikon seems to be on that track with more than twice as many DX lenses as Canon EFS, including the new 18-200VR. Canon shooters are now officially entitled to lens envy!

Where will this go? Who knows? Had Canon bought into the Foveon sensor three years ago, that technology might have taken digital photography beyond where we are today. Instead, like rearden metal, of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, it languishes and is on the verge of disappearing, thanks to the power of the establishment. And make no mistake about it, Canon is the establishment.

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Old Dec 14, 2005, 12:20 PM   #20
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wburychka wrote:
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This is the reasonnature shooters are flocking (pun intended) to the Nikon D2x and hoping that Nikon will come through with the promised 500 and 600 VR lenses soon!
What wrong with a KM using the new Sony 10.9Mpixels sensor with 'antishake' built-in?
Couple this body with any lens (even a 300-800mm zoom) and you have a killer combo with VR all for free!!! :idea:
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