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Old Oct 3, 2005, 10:07 AM   #1
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what is the difference between say the 20D sensor to the new 5DdSLR which willfeature a full-size sensor, exactly what will be the pros and cons (if any)of this new camera??
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Old Oct 3, 2005, 10:28 AM   #2
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To sum it up as far as full frame vs non-full frame:

5D (full frame) - you'll get more coverage with wide angle lenses, but less coverage with telephoto. The opposite is true for the 20D (1.6 crop factor) and other non-full frame sensors.
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Old Oct 3, 2005, 1:55 PM   #3
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Here are the differences off the top of my head (some you won't directly see, but they do effect you.)

The 5D's sensor is physically larger (by about 60%) so it costs more to make.

The 5D's sensor is the same size as a piece of 35-mm film. So the "Crop" factor you get with the 20D which makes you lenses seem like they are more powerful is gone. As AlpineMan said, wide angle lenses will seem wider and telephoto will seem sorter.

The photosites (the part of the sensor which actually senses light) are probably be larger than on the 20D (I don't know this for sure.) This means that where will be less noise at higher ISOs.

I don't know about other things, like if the camera body is water proof, how good its AF is, if it will still auto-focus at F8 or only f5.6 (like the 20D) , how robust the shutter is, how loud it is, how good the metering system is, and many more.

That is the stuff for reviews.

From what I've seen of your exelent photography, you don't need that camera. You should do what I'm doing, and wait for the replacement to the 1D MkII. For what we do, that camera could be near perfect (at least I'm hoping!)

Eric
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Old Oct 3, 2005, 2:15 PM   #4
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IMO it's a defensive move from Canon part:

1. The full-frame market is not big enough for everyone, and with this camera they can secure an upgrade path for their lens systems
2. The cropped 10-12Mpixels CMOS sensors are here: See the Sony release -> a Minolta, Nikon, and Pentax based on this sensor is not far behind (they currently all use the same Sony CCD at this time) - the competition will be interesting in the upcoming months
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Old Oct 3, 2005, 6:53 PM   #5
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the D2X is a sony made CMOS imager to begin with.

12.4 Effective Megapixels: High Resolution 12.4 Effective Megapixel CMOS DX Sensor with fast 4-channel output for 4,288 x 2,848-pixel images

the time of the CCD is also winding down.

the 5D is not a defensive move it is a offensive act. they say we can get the yield and produce a full frame imager and offer it at a "reasonable" price can you?

gloves are off and the challenge is there.

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Old Oct 3, 2005, 7:15 PM   #6
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eric s wrote:
Quote:
Here are the differences off the top of my head (some you won't directly see, but they do effect you.)

The 5D's sensor is physically larger (by about 60%) so it costs more to make.

The 5D's sensor is the same size as a piece of 35-mm film. So the "Crop" factor you get with the 20D which makes you lenses seem like they are more powerful is gone. As AlpineMan said, wide angle lenses will seem wider and telephoto will seem sorter.

The photosites (the part of the sensor which actually senses light) are probably be larger than on the 20D (I don't know this for sure.) This means that where will be less noise at higher ISOs.

I don't know about other things, like if the camera body is water proof, how good its AF is, if it will still auto-focus at F8 or only f5.6 (like the 20D) , how robust the shutter is, how loud it is, how good the metering system is, and many more.

That is the stuff for reviews.

From what I've seen of your exelent photography, you don't need that camera. You should do what I'm doing, and wait for the replacement to the 1D MkII. For what we do, that camera could be near perfect (at least I'm hoping!)

Eric

so the 1D Mk11 is a smaller sensor as well? I'd be happy just to upgrade to a 20D seeing as Im still using the first digital rebel/300D. Im not keen to lose distance though of any lenses as I take lots of wildlife and sports. So the new 5D would not be any use to me unless I go seriously rich quick:-)
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Old Oct 3, 2005, 7:20 PM   #7
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Yup...to get back what you'd lose on the 5D, you'll need to get:

1) Longer lenses

and/or

2) A teleconverter
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Old Oct 3, 2005, 10:09 PM   #8
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"The 5D's sensor is the same size as a piece of 35-mm film. So the "Crop" factor you get with the 20D which makes you lenses seem like they are more powerful is gone. As AlpineMan said, wide angle lenses will seem wider and telephoto will seem sorter."

THIS is definitely true. After 2 /12 years of 1.6 lens factor, I'm finding myself unsure about which lens to use. I'm having to retrain myself in how to chose lenses for specific types of photograpy. I found myself getting ready to remove my 28 - 135 for some wide angle shots only to realize that I simply need to zoom wider. 28 is now 28.

"The photosites (the part of the sensor which actually senses light) are probably be larger than on the 20D (I don't know this for sure.) This means that where will be less noise at higher ISOs."

From what I can tell this seems to be true. I know that the pixel size and distribution is nearly identical to that of the 1D mk II. What I really wanted was a 1D mk II at a cheaper price. I really like what the 1.6 factor does to the long zooms. The mk II would give you a bit of both. It wouldadd a little to the wide angle and zoom,making the choice of an all around lens a little easier.

"I don't know about other things, like if the camera body is water proof, how good its AF is, if it will still auto-focus at F8 or only f5.6 (like the 20D) , how robust the shutter is, how loud it is, how good the metering system is, and many more."

The shutter is rated for 100,000 shots. It is definitely quieter than the 20D, but not as quiet as the 10D. The body size is very close to the 10D, almost identical. The 10D with a Sigma 18 - 200 DC lens felt about as heavy as the 5D with the 28 -135 IS lens. I compared the two and with a few minor changes either body could be used for each camera.

Just as those of us were surprised at how all the improvements between the 20D over the 10D made such a big difference in the total package. The 5D has a lot of improvements that when added up make it seem much more professional than the 20D. However, for the photograper who doesn't have enough money to buy a 1D mkII for sports or wildlife photography, it not as good as the 20D because of the 1.6 lens multiplier factor.The 5Ddefinitely helps the event photographers because ofit's full frame, improved focusing, ISO in the view finder, 1/3 ISO increments (this is HUGE!!), 60 frames burst depth is simply rediculous!!! I bet they used the same buffer and some other things from the 1Ds to get such a big buffer. I tried it up to 28 frames and quit because it didn't make any sense to continue.

The larger LCD and much improved menu options make it easier to use than the 20D or 1D mk II. I used to shoot everything in color and convert to grayscale in Photoshop.However, the monochrome photos straight out of this camera seem to be better than what I'm able to get, even when using advanced techniques in Photoshop. If only I could get something or someone to print what I see on the LCD or my computer monitor (B/W).

I will probably get rid of my 10D, but I definitely plan on keeping the 20D to use not only as a backup, but also as a primary camera depending on what I'm shooting. Although 12.8 megapixels does help make up for a lot of framing mistakes when shooting close up. I canstay furtherback and get the same sizeimage as before with cropping.

I agree with Eric, for your shooting style stick with the 20D and get some bigger high quality glass. I took a photo class for Canon photographers and my photos with the 20D ranked a 3rd and 5th place in a class where most of the students had 1Ds mkIIs. We were all professionals or like me part-time pros. The 20D is a great camera. Even at 24 x 36 sized photos in the class it was difficult to tell the difference between photos taken with the 20D and those taken with the 1D mkII.

Bill


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Old Oct 4, 2005, 3:02 PM   #9
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aladyforty wrote:
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so the 1D Mk11 is a smaller sensor as well? I'd be happy just to upgrade to a 20D seeing as Im still using the first digital rebel/300D. Im not keen to lose distance though of any lenses as I take lots of wildlife and sports. So the new 5D would not be any use to me unless I go seriously rich quick:-)
Yes, the 1D MkII's sensor gives you a 1.3x crop factor (not full frame, not the 1.6 of the 20D.) So you loose some reach and gain... well, huge amounts. I don't recommend reading about the 1D MkII without a bib on, 'cause you'll be drooling by the end of it all.

Other than cost and weight, the only downside is the 1.3x crop factor. But think of it this way. If the next model has enough resolution, you can create the exact same "crop factor" in photoshop and loose nothing. I find the 20D's image size to be very nice, so if I can produce the same thing by croping in that (non-existant) 1D MkIII, then I'll be first in line to buy it.

Eric
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