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Old Nov 1, 2005, 9:09 AM   #1
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So, I decided to go with the 20D because of the rebates, and because of Canon's lenses. However, I have been leery of the smaller than 35mm CMOS in this camera, and I didn't want to buy any EF-S lenses that would be obsolete when the CMOS gets bigger. And, I figure, even if Canon in a few years makes an affordable 35mm CMOS, they will probably stick with that for a long time, just because of tradition and regular film cameras that use 35mm film.This way, when cameras get up to 50MP and are affordable, I can still use my lenses.

So, here is what I am going to buy. Does this sound like a good future proof setup? I'm going with B&H because of price and the fact that they are an authorized retailer hence I can get the rebates on all the canon stuff, and I don't think I'll have to pay sales tax or shipping.

20D body from B&H Photo for $1489 (Includes a 2GB memory card worth $200)

EF 28-135 IS/USM lens (as my primary lense instead of that EF-S 17-85)

EF 70-300mm IS/USM telephoto lens

EF 20mm USM wide

MP-E 65mm macro

Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX

Speedlite 430 EX

Firefly Slave (for my old Sunpack flash)

Pelican case

Sound like a good setup? After the rebates, this should all run about $4400. After a while, I'd like to get a Canon 35mm film body camera.
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Old Nov 1, 2005, 9:34 AM   #2
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Change the 28-135 IS/USM to the 24-105 f/4 L IS USM

I'll look into a Sigma 150mm f/2.8 macro (it's full-frame) and forego the ring light since you'll have more stand-off distance for the 430EX, but then it'll depend on what you shoot... :?

BTW this is what I have - It'll just drop into a 1550 waterproof case:
http://www.adorama.com/PLS155.html


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Old Nov 1, 2005, 10:03 AM   #3
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The sensor in the XXXD and XXD range isn't going to get any bigger.

The sensor in the XD's successors will certainly get cheaper over time.

But here's the thing; at the wide end the two cameras need different lenses.

It depends entirely on what you shoot.

But if you were on 35mm would you think a good selection to be:

EF 45-216mm IS/USM
EF 112-480MM IS/USM
EF 36mm USM
104mm Macro

?

It seems to me that you are completely missing a wide angle lens, unless you think 36mm EFL is wide, which I don't - but perhaps you can live with it.

If you want to avoid digital lenses for the smaller sensor then you're either going to have to give up on landscapes entirely or be very restricted in your choice.

At the very least I would suggest getting the 18-55mm kit lens off eBay or something.

How long are you planning on keeping the 20D? If you're planning on keeping it for 3 years I'd suggest that you amortize the cost of the 17-85 into that lifetime and sell the lens when you sell the camera if you plan to move up the range.

The 28-135 is NOT a replacement for the 17-85 on the APS sensor cameras. At the very least I would suggest you swap the EF 20mm for the Sigma 12-24mm, it's only a little more expensive and will work on full-frame but still enable good wide-angle shots on 20D.

For telephoto lenses the difference is less important.


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Old Nov 1, 2005, 10:07 AM   #4
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There's a reason for the rebate i.e. D200 (... and others) IMO if you're in no hurry wait a couple more months... :idea:
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Old Nov 1, 2005, 2:17 PM   #5
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the season ahead looks fun..

D200 what else..



i am sure KM is not far behind, KM9D or something,



canon (even with 5D) now will need more...



its a fun ride, for someone planning to buy something now, waiting for a couple of months is going to worth the wait....



NHL-Even with D200 the KM 5D looks ominous...no matter what others may produce KM can take a good share of the market if intelligent enough to bring a KM series with lot of improvement at a reasonable price.....



wow i am game for this ride...
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Old Nov 3, 2005, 12:28 AM   #6
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Thanks for the replies. Sure shows me how little I know about this digital world. I almost think this belongs in the Newbie column, but since it is specific to the 20d I'll start it here.

First: Yeah, that EF 24-105mm would be swell, I just don't have$1250 to spend on a single lense yet. I need a prosumer basic setup. The most expensive lense I want is the 1-5x macro at $850, just because I know that one isn't one I'd need to upgrade. The rest I want to keep in the $300-$500 range for now.If I start actually selling freelance writing projects or win the lotto maybe I can step up to those red stripe lenses or even the white body lenses. Not yet.

I am looking for the setup that will allow me to photograph whatever I want when faced with something I want to capture for perpetuity. I don't want to get in a situation where I don't have the lense I need to getthe job done (with the exception of a 600mm tele- that'll have to wait)If I want to take a picture of something tiny like a crawfish's eyeball, I need the macro. If there is a bird in a tree, I need a tele. If there is a really nice scene in front of me, I need the wide. Then of course the regular shooting that a nice standard zoom can handle.

Maybe I don't quite understand this conversionfactor, but to get a really nice wide angle shot, do I then need a super-widewide angle lense such as the EF 20-35mm, just so enough of the image in front of me hits the CMOS, and if I put the lense onmy backup 35mm Canonfilm camera or an upgraded 35mm CMOS, it will be super wide again?I do not want the fish-eye lense look, but I don't want to lose a nice scene due to thisobnoxious conversion factor.

I also am going to just stick with Canon lenses. I've heard about too many problems with Sigma and other lenses (I had a Sigma fall apart on me a fewyears ago)

Also, I don't understand why anyone would want to buy a used 17-85 EF-S lense in a few years when it will be obsolete, right? Who is going to want a lense that focuses down toa small CMOS size when thatCMOS is never going to be made again?

I also don't understand what the problem is with the ringlite flash. I have never had one of those before, so all I understand is, tiny stuff needs extra light, so I need a ringlite flash to light it up, right?It seems like aneasy way to light something up, and I don't wantto getinto some weirdstudio lighting system. I want something I can clip to the lense in the field and just get the job done.The ringlite I selected would get the job done really well won't it?

Oh, I know why there is a rebate, it is to clear out old stock. But, I can't see a 35mm CMOS on the 20D replacement just because of the scuttlebutt I've read in these forums about it competing with the 5d. However, I am going to wait to make this purchase until early Jan 2006 so that maybe I can find out whether or not the 20D replacement will have a 35mm CMOS. That would make this conversion factor a moot point. maybe also alleviate some of my heartburn about conversion factors too.

Just so all of you know, I'm no tech tweaker with this camera stuff. Itcan be really confusing for me, I just want to start with good qualitybasic stuff and then maybe later I can get all complex with the terminology like you folks. Meanwhile, I am confused.:?



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Old Nov 3, 2005, 12:48 AM   #7
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firstoff, the 20ds successor will be an APS sized sensor, prolly 10-11mp, more ISO stops, bigger buffer.. ok, got it everyone..

how bout this kit..

Tamron/Sigma 17-35 2.8-4.0

Tamron 28-75 2.8 / Sigma 24-70 2.8

Sigma 100-300 EX F4

Tamron 90mm/Tokina 100mm/Sigma 105mm Macro

all full frame and optically more sound than many of your choices..

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dustin

www.hardwickphotos.com
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Old Nov 3, 2005, 1:14 AM   #8
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I'll check those lenses, still leery of lower quality. I am mostly buying a lense setup that I get upgraded bodies for as the years pass, and then maybe in 10 years getting the really nice lenses if I can afford them (and who knows where this tech is going anyhow...) I expect my next MP point will be 50MP. It will be interesting to see how fast full frame sensors catch on and how fast the technology increased MP and quality.

Also, since what I really want is the 5D or the top of the line model,and I can't afford that, maybe I'll just get the Rebel instead of the 20D, it is less expensive, I canlearn to use my lenses, thenget a full frame model in a few years when I'm ready to drop my training wheels. I just don't want to get involved in a lensesetup that caters tothese smaller sensors. Seems like a dead end to me.

Still hoping others can clarify some of my other ?s.
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Old Nov 3, 2005, 2:27 AM   #9
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speleojeff wrote:
Quote:
Also, I don't understand why anyone would want to buy a used 17-85 EF-S lense in a few years when it will be obsolete, right? Who is going to want a lense that focuses down toa small CMOS size when thatCMOS is never going to be made again?
Keep in mind that there are currently only 2 digital SLR cameras with a FF35mm chip, they cost $3500 and $8000 dollars respectively. Nikon have none. Olympus have none. Konica-Minolta have none. Pentax have none. Canon's two biggest selling DSLRs have APS-C sized sensors. Do you see a pattern there?

Even if they all disappeared and miraculously some new manufacturing technique meant everyone's next DSLR was FF I still don't see the problem - if you're gonna keep the 20D as a backup then you'll need a lens for it, and the 17-85 is the best walkaround for that camera.

Even when newer cameras come out the photos from the 20D don't suddenly start getting worse, and the 20D right now is as good or better than 35mm film under most conditions.

I would suggest 3 lenses for you:
1. EF-S 17-85mm
2. Sigma 100-300 f4 EX. (+1.4x TC if you like)

For macro work you can take your pick of the 90/100mm macros they're all good + very good tripod + ringflash etc.

#2 and #3 will be full frame and the other is the best walkaround lens for the 20D.

When you buy the 5D MkII in a few years get it with the 24-105L "kit" and either get sell the 20D+17-85 or keep them as backup or give them to a niece or something.

You say you're leery of "lower quality" but selected the 28-135 & 70-300? Those lenses are not in the same quality class as the Sigma EX range - the build quality is significantly worse, and optically the Sigma 100-300 is MUCH better than the Canon 70-300. By all means stay away from cheap Sigma lenses but the EX range is their "Pro" range.

Your next MP point is unlikely to be 50 - because it's not gonna happen on a 35mm camera unless the wavelength of visible light changes quite dramatically or you think ISO 100 is as high as you ever want to go. Besides, why would you need 50Mp? At 16Mp you can print A3 images at ~300dpi how big are you planning on printing?

There are a handful of fine-art applications mostly in the landscape field that do need A2 or A1 or even A0 prints, but for that they use medium format digital or large format film, of course you can also do panorama stitching with a digital camera for those applications and you're moving into the realm of some VERY expensive printers.
BTW for good macro work you don't mention a tripod, which means you either have an old expensive tripod or you've never tried macro photography. It's quite possible to get decent close-ups of butterflies etc without all the expensive macro gear, but if you want to do proper macro work it's going to cost you a hefty amount.

You also don't mention printing or editing. Have you decided what editing software you're going to use. What RAW conversion if any. How are you going to print - at a minilab or by post or are you buying a photo printer?

I'm curious - what kind of photography do you do now? What cameras do you own? What experience do you have? The answers to these do have relevance to what we would recommend.
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Old Nov 3, 2005, 8:06 AM   #10
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speleojeff wrote:
Quote:
I've heard about too many problems with Sigma and other lenses (I had a Sigma fall apart on me a fewyears ago)
I probably own as many Canon lenses as most people here, but I also happen to have the EF 28-135 IS/USM and the above mentioned full-frame Sigma 12-24mm EX:

The Sigma EX is metal and fits snuggly
The Canon is all plastic and the top 1/3 wiggles like crazy... It also droops when pointed up or down!

The EX has a warranty of 4 years
The Canon ends @ one...
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