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Old Mar 3, 2006, 5:58 PM   #1
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hi.. i've read the forums alot over the last couple days and i'm in an little dillema ...



i've bought an 350D Kit, Batterie Pack, 2nd canon Batterie, 1GB CF which came close to 1000€

i'm currently not 100% satisfied with the lens especially missing IS, as this is the kit lense i didnt expected wonders. i'm looking into getting and efs 17-85 IS which cost roughly 500€ that would make the complete package 1,5k

so now i can also get an D20+ efs 17-85IS+ 2nd noname batterie+ 1gb CF
for the same amount.. thats something nagging on me...

i can return my 350+stuff and get my money back then buy the d20..

this is my main concern, to spend too much money into something (350) where i could get someting better for little less extras.

at the end when i buy the IS lense i won't need the kit lense anymore, so that would be actualy lost money (even if its just 50-60€)

and i've readed into the build quality differences of the 350d/20d and the fact that you can take around 50k vs 100k images before something could(!) break.

i've taken 1,5k images on my last consumer digicam i bought 6 month ago. you could say thats not much, but you can do alot more burst shots. i have the 350 a week (one week left to give it back) and already took ~650 images, alot was crap alot was test, a few where good, but it was always damn fun cause the camera is so fast (compared to the ones i've used before) ...

at the end of the day even crap images will shorten the lifetime of the cam.

what would you guys do? i'm lost, i even thought to switch over to the 30D which would be around 200-300more but at the end this money could be invested into macro lense...

ahh damn i'm caught running after my own tail..

any suggestions would help alot.
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Old Mar 3, 2006, 7:27 PM   #2
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The 20D is one of the best DSLR's you can get. Ifyou don't need the size of the RebelXT (350D),and price insn't a serious problem, the 20D is the best camera youcan get for under $1500 USD.
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Old Mar 3, 2006, 7:35 PM   #3
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This almost sounds like a post we'd find in the What Camera Should I Buy Forum (which is why I took a look at it, since the title of "unsure: 350D or 20D" made me think you may have posted in the wrong forum. ;-)

Welcome to the forums.

What attracted you to the Canon XT, and why do you think you need stabilized lenses?

What limitations are you seeing now with the kit lens?

You'll have a learning curve with a DSLR, so it's understandable that you're not getting a high percentage of keepers yet compared to your old camera.

For one thing, Depth of Field is much shallower on a DSLR compared to a non-DSLR model for any given aperture, 35mm equivalent focal length and focus distance.

That's because the actual focal length of the lens in a non-DSLR model is much shorter for the same angle of view (and you use the actual versus 35mm equivalent focal lengths for DOF calculations).

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

So, sometimes users mistake a shallow depth of field for a camera issue (since less of the scene will be in focus at the same apertures you were using). But, you can select a smaller aperture (higher f/stop number) if desired, and increase ISO speeds to keep shutter speeds up.

IOW, I wouldn't rush out and spend a bunch of money unless you have a genuine need. Chances are, most of it is just you needing to gain some experience with the equipment, so you understand it's behavior and can learn to make changes when you shoot in the same conditions you're having problems in. It takes time to get used to any camera.

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Old Mar 3, 2006, 8:17 PM   #4
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P.S.

Sure, the 20D is a nicer camera. But, I would not assume that by getting one it's going to help your percentage of keepers. Ditto for the lens upgrade.

Chances are, your skill is the limiting factor shooting with a brand new camera.

You may be better off trying to figure out why your photos are not coming out the way you want. Then, you can make a more educated decision on things like lens and body upgrades

I'll let others comment on the merits of one solution versus another. I just wanted to point out that spending more money does not necessarily equal better photos, depending on your needs.

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Old Mar 4, 2006, 10:07 AM   #5
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JimC wrote:
Quote:
This almost sounds like a post we'd find in the What Camera Should I Buy Forum (which is why I took a look at it, since the title of "unsure: 350D or 20D" made me think you may have posted in the wrong forum. ;-)

Welcome to the forums.
thnx

Quote:
What attracted you to the Canon XT, and why do you think you need stabilized lenses?
i bought the 350 cause of the reviews i readed, the good image quality the camre should have and the good iso performance (which is important for me)


Quote:
What limitations are you seeing now with the kit lens
well the zoom is smaller than the conumers cams i used before
the macro possibilites are also limited. i know i need different lenses for thoose purposes but i somehow feel stuck right in the middle with this lens

Quote:
You'll have a learning curve with a DSLR, so it's understandable that you're not getting a high percentage of keepers yet compared to your old camera.

For one thing, Depth of Field is much shallower on a DSLR compared to a non-DSLR model for any given aperture, 35mm equivalent focal length and focus distance.

That's because the actual focal length of the lens in a non-DSLR model is much shorter for the same angle of view (and you use the actual versus 35mm equivalent focal lengths for DOF calculations).

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

So, sometimes users mistake a shallow depth of field for a camera issue (since less of the scene will be in focus at the same apertures you were using). But, you can select a smaller aperture (higher f/stop number) if desired, and increase ISO speeds to keep shutter speeds up.
there is not such a huge difference for my keepers, even on my old cams image quality was always different depending on the situations and the settings.
most consumer camreas have very high noise in high iso settings, one of the reasons to go canon



Quote:

IOW, I wouldn't rush out and spend a bunch of money unless you have a genuine need. Chances are, most of it is just you needing to gain some experience with the equipment, so you understand it's behavior and can learn to make changes when you shoot in the same conditions you're having problems in. It takes time to get used to any camera.
problem is i already paid for the 350 + accs. , i actualy bought the battery grip 2 days later cause the 350 was a bit to small for my hands alone.

i know that i need alot of learning todo to even understand all the things i could do with either cam.

its more descision what is worth more in my eyes, at the end i'm rougly spending the same amount of money, money is not an issue, but i don't want to keep the 350 just to find out a year later that i would have rather taken the 20d
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Old Mar 4, 2006, 10:24 AM   #6
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Well, any camera is a compromise (size, weight, cost features, etc.), and you do have to consider lenses, conditions you'll be shooting in, etc.

If you're not shooting in conditions where you need IS, there are some alternatives available that can give you more focal range compared to the kit lens you bought.

For example, Sigma has a new lens now that will give you 17-70mm, with pretty decent macro performance (1:2.3) for a zoom in this focal range.

http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/len...mp;navigator=6

It's a bit pricey, depending on your needs.

You'll need to decide what you really need in the long run. Each user will have different preferences.

But, I wouldn't spend too much money on lenses, unless you're pretty sure of the conditions you'll be using them in. You may end up deciding that you need brighter lenses for some purposes. For example, IS is great for reducing blur from camera shake. But, you may need a lens with larger available apertures + high ISO speeds for shooting moving subjects in low light.

Every choice has tradeoffs (size, weight, cost, focal range, ergonomics, optical quality, lens brightness, AF speed, macro ability, etc.).

Personally, I went with a KM DSLR. That way, I've got built in anti-shake that works with every lens, including bright primes + ISO 3200 that you don't get in the entry level models from Nikon or Canon (the Nikon D50 and Rebel XT are both limited to ISO 1600). You can get a Konica Minolta Maxxum 5D in a kit that includes an 18-70mm f/3.5-5.6 lens for $699.95 at http://www.bhphotovideo.com or http://www.ritzcamera.com

It's not the world's best lens, but it's got good focal range for the little bit it adds to the kit cost. For lower light (despite the body's built in anti-shake), I'd want to use a brighter lens.

If you're shooting in low light where you may need higher ISO speeds, in the Canon lineup, the 20D would be an excellent choice. It's ergonomics are much better than the XT, you've got faster frame rates, bigger buffer, etc., too. It/s AF system is also very good.

In the end, you'll need to make the final decision.

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Old Mar 4, 2006, 11:23 AM   #7
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i've looked into the KM dslrs and the feature where interesting, but since km announced to drop out of the dslr market and giving it over to sony i was a bit unsure if it would be a good choice to buy that brand

the build in anti shake in the D series is interesting i found the consumer dimage series very interesting back then.

questions is how general support will be without km, since afaik sonys plans are not yet revealed.


.. and i forgot to thank you so faar for youre help, as for the lenses i havent looked into third party lenses yet as the market is huge


i've come to the conslusion that the 350 body is not the one i'm satisfied with, problem is i just can order the cams over the net, can't test thema handson in a shop cause there is no in my area
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Old Mar 4, 2006, 12:45 PM   #8
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Quote:
problem is i already paid for the 350 + accs. , i actualy bought the battery grip 2 days later cause the 350 was a bit to small for my hands alone.
I've posted here about my thoughts on the 350D size several times. I still think it's a great camera, but I did have problems with its smaller body. It is roughly the same size as some other entry level dSLR (Pentax and Olympus), Nikon's D50 has a body that fits my hand better.

With that said, I think if you are getting the Rebel XT with the battery grip to make the body bigger, I'd suggest you just get 20D, for not much more.

I will echo others opinion, that chances are you are your issue is more likely how you're currently taking pictures, than the camera's issue. But from pure money side, it makes no sense to own both the 17-85 IS USM and the kit lens, and it makes little sense to buy the Rebel XT and the battery grip to make the camera bigger. If I were you, I'd get the 20D and the 17-85 lens, and buy extra battery some other time.

good luck!


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Old Mar 4, 2006, 9:34 PM   #9
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I agree. A 20D and the EF-S 17-85mm IS lens is a great combination. The 20D is an awesome camera.
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Old Mar 5, 2006, 4:59 AM   #10
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Ditto the 20D and 17-85 lens combo. The 20D is a more robust body and the 17-85 lens, while not an "L" lens, is very good, and a HUGE upgrade over the kit lens. No need for the battery grip, just buy an extra pack.
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