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Old Jul 17, 2006, 9:02 PM   #11
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NHL wrote:
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Do you think leeraff appreciate the importance of f/2.8 and 3200 yet?
Lol:lol:...
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Old Jul 17, 2006, 11:54 PM   #12
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NHL,
You seem fairly caustic in nearly every post. You don't know how much I appreciate the responses here, especially JohnG's. I'll even include some of your feedback as helpful. Some.

Gee, 3200. Tough one. Is that the rpms? So I guess the Canon must rev up a little higher. I'm sure the chicks will dig that.

And that f/2.8. Don't know where you're located from your nifty longitude and latitudes. Not sure what international dates you use. I can only think the "F" means February but then I don't know why you'd put 2.8. Is that February 8th? I'm totally lost.

Heck, I just want a good camera that will take really some purty pictures. I just want one with a button that will allow me to adjust the camera's sensitivity to light. I wonder if that would come into play at concerts, or indoors versus outside on a bright sunny day. Maybe one camera will have a neat little way to unlock a feature and double it's sensitivity. Hey, what's this ISO button do and where do I shove in my 400 speed film?!?

And that f/2.8 stuff. I just don't know if I want to have that much control over how much light hits my sensor. Heck, like you, I have enough of a problem expressing myself without almost exclusively relying on emoticons. I just don't know if I've got enough "depth of field" yet. So, let me get back to, er, let me "isolate the subject" for you a little...

NHL, if you don't like my tedious posts, if you don't want to help a newbie, go f-stop yourself. Would you like that in an f/2.8?!? Nah, f/22 probably is a better fit for you. :lol:

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Old Jul 18, 2006, 8:35 AM   #13
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JohnG (loved your site. those pics are great. no color issues with what I saw) Your quote...

"If you are leaning towards the Nikon for whatever reasons then by all means get it - it is more than capable of handling the shooting you plan on doing."

Oddly enough, as stated in several of my "learning" posts, and I think it was stated here, I am actually LEANING towards Canon. Always have. The 20d was my goal but a financial stretch. The 30d then becomes a no-brainer.

Can't explain why I leaned Canon, and, quite frankly, that bothers me a bit. I'm thinking it DOES, unfortunately, have something to do with name recognition from sporting events. I HATE to admit that. I do believe CAnon has buried in my head, sports photography = CAnon. And, that if it's good enough for fast action shooting, it'll be able to catch my twin boys eating bugs and chasing dogs. (I wonder if Canon planted some chip in my head when I bought my PowerShot.)

The other factor clearly was the help I recieved RIGHT HERE, in the Canon forums of this web site when I first began my research months ago.

That said, it was a side-by-side comparison, VERY UNSCIENTIFIC that blew me away with Nikons out-of-the-box, default colors. Listening to what everyone has added, something had to be off for there to be that much color variation. And, I, the knowledgeable and experienced user will have control over color saturation. Well, some day. (That is if I'll ever get off this site and just go buy something. HEY, NHL, Look! I can rip on me too!!! I see why it's so much fun for you. When you f-stopped, did you do it in full or 1/3 increments????)

Last question. Well, maybe. HOW MUCH DOES THE AI SERVO FEATURE HELP IN CAPTURING FASTER IMAGES? Finally found a local clerk who was a Canon advocate. He tried pointing that feature out to me. Probably a great photographer but not the best at explanations. IS THAT feature, the AI Servo, one of the internal, guts, engineering differences that helps in speed for CAnon? Or, is it just truly back to good glass and a good photographer? Believe me, I'm getting the point. Just not sure the Nikon clerks I've spoken with either know about or are willing to advocate THAT PARTICULAR CAnon feature. One even claimed Nikon had an advantage in that category, but, he was the one who kept pointing back more to President Kennedy and Nixon era photography to prove his Nikon points. Lost me when he began to argue with a customer who listened in and advocated her 20d experience.

Beleive me, the 30d is killing me. I want it. Just couldn't get over the color differences in my unscientific experiment b/n Rebel and d50. HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THE INFERIOR KIT LENS IN THE REBEL COULD HAVE COME INTO PLAY???? From all you "glass" folks, could that have been the mysterious variable in the equation? Admittedly, Nikon stocks better lenses with their cameras. Done.... For now...





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Old Jul 18, 2006, 10:02 AM   #14
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Leeraff,

I think I see two questions here: one dealing with AI Servo and one dealing with color:

On AI Servo - It is absolutely essential for sports shooting. I know several wildlife folks that prefer to NOT use it - the difference is: In AI servo mode, the camera is in a shutter-priority mode - that is, the shutter will fire whether or not there is a focus lock. In one-shot, the shutter will not fire until focus is achieved. But, there's a fundamental difference IMO between the two genres - in sports shooting you shoot a lot more objects coming towards / moving away and servo mode is essential.Otherwise you just won't get the bursts you need:

Another side note - bursts are important in sports - lets take a runner moving towards you - having a good burst rate ensures you get a decent stride and a decent facial expression - something you don't need to worry about with a bird in flight. So, just getting a sharp picture isn't good enough if the runner looks akward (and you'd be surprised how silly many people look when they run).

Now - back to Servo - Both Canon and Nikon have continuous focusing modes. The 20D/30d has a very good servo mode. It suffers in comparison to the 1d (which has 45 point focusing vs. 9 point focusing - gee I wonder why it's better). But once you understand how it works and practice the 20d/30d works very well. To be honest I've never seen any official comparison of the 20d/30d servo speed vs the D200 so I can't comment on whether one is better than the other. But, if you do useeither camera for sports you'll want to use servo. Now, having said that - if an object is stationary then Servo doesn't work as well - it's better to switch to single shot. Canon has a hybrid mode: AI-Focus for this reason - it's supposed to switch back and forth between the two modes but I don't know of anyone that uses it - I don't.

On to color - Color has much more to do with proper exposure than anything else. After that, the next most important attribute is processing. In this area you either use in-camera processing (all dslrs allow you to adjust saturation and contrast in-camera) or via software. I'd say these two areas account for 90% of color quality. 3rd on the list is the lens. This was more important with SLRs - now with the post-processing capabilities the color rendition is less important in the lens IMO. Finally is the camera sensor itself.

So, bottom line - given in-camera adjustments and same quality lens and proper exposure you should be able to get great results from either system. Of course the opposite is absolutely true - if you have poor exposure, poor contrast and don't do some processing your images willhave poor color quality. DSLRs can produce great images - but they're not a magic solution. They require A LOT of input on your part to produce those images. I will tell you what I tell a lot of people considering a DSLR - without knowledge and work on your part, a DSLR will produce WORSE images than a point and shoot. It's like driving a high end sports car - they're wonderful driving machines when you understand how they work. If you don't then you'll probably end up wrecking. Similar with DSLR - if you don't take the time to learn exposure, depth of field and post processing you'll end up with very mediocre images.

Don't know if any of this helps you make a decision or not. In closing I would just say - don't agonize too long. Make a decision and go with it. Time spent agonizing is time you could better spend learning your new camera and taking quality photos and having fun.
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Old Jul 18, 2006, 12:50 PM   #15
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AI servo is also important for wildlife shooters like me, particularly for birds in flight shots. Some folks get by using single shot mode but I really on burst shots in AI servo mode. 30D is nicebut no way near 1dmk2 in that regard.
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Old Jul 18, 2006, 1:09 PM   #16
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we may have achieved the "ah ha" moment. Thanks so much for those great replies.

As far as agonizing, I agonized until I saved up for the Rebel. Just didn't feel 100% on that. All those great replies leave me comfortable that the user controls those color variations and I'll learn how to do that. Now, a little more saving up for the 30d, maybe even this weekend . I'll keep the agonizing to a minimum until then.

You guys have all been great. Appreciate the help.

JohnG, I certainly could research this, but while we're here and have gotten so specific, do you care to share any lens advice. I'll no doubt go with the kit lens and learn how to use the camera. (I'll be a little kid with an army's worth of weapons in the camera alone!!!) Yes, PLENTY of posts on this. Just didn't know if you'd share since I've already described so much of my interests. Kids and learning camera first. Sports down the road. Eventually, 1) better walk around 2) zoom capabilities. 3) a good prime Is there a pretty good formula for that???? A pretty standard mixed bag of lenses for the beginner? Yes, learn the camera. Yes, learn my own needs....
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Old Jul 18, 2006, 2:32 PM   #17
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Lee,

My advice on lenses is to get a walk-around lens first. Given budget constraints, I'll give 3 recommendations:

1. 18-55 kit lens. $80 lens that will allow you to learn on very well - but you'll replace it.

2. 17-85 kit lens - this kit costs $400 more. The 17-85 is a very nice consumer lens that a lot of people use for their walk-around lens on their body.

3. 28-135 - this is an older Canon lens - it's a full frame lens the 17-85 was designed to replace on 1.6 crop canons (EF-S lenses produce a smaller image circle and thus can only be used on 1.6x crop cameras - i.e. they can't be used on a 5d or a 1d but they don't need as much glass, so they're lighter and theoretically less expensive). I still use this lens as my walkaround lens. I personally don't like EF-S lenses for the mere reason I want to eventually move to a 1dMk II-N and I'd have to sell a 17-85. That's my personal bias. Others will tell you quite validly you may never make that jump and even if you did you can get 5-6 great years of use out of an EF-S lens and then turn around and resell it. This lens is about the same price as the 17-85mm

All of the above have their pluses and minuses. But, beware NONE of them are good for low-light action - and I don't mean sports - I mean kids running around in the house. For low light use where objects are stationary the IS of the 17-85 or 28-135 is useful - but IS doesn't stop motion blur so the technology is not useful for moving subjects. Since you reference the family shots - inside and out, I'm going to suggest the following to get you the most 'bang for your buck':

Buy the kit lens 18-55mm kit lens for $80 (cheaper than the other two and the 28-135 is not wide enough for some indoor situations).

Buy an external flash - Canon 430ez ($240) or Sigma 500 DG Super ($220). The flash will take care of your indoor photos much better than a 'fast lens' will - a fast lens is great for certain circumstances but not for multiple people - birthday party type shots.

Down the road you can buy another lens for your sports shooting (the above just won't cover it) and can even add to or replace the $80 kit lens with something better - but for your neeeds, I see an external flash being more beneficial than a different lens. And, what's more important prices and technology may improve so you may be able to get more for less. The lesson here is buy gear as you need it - not as you want it. Too much is happening in the DSLR world in both bodies and lenses right now to buy an item before you need it.

You'll also want at least 2mb in CF cards (I use and have never had an issue with Sandisk Ultra II and Extreme III cards).


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Old Jul 19, 2006, 8:09 AM   #18
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Edited my original post so that this information would be found early on in my debate. Also, adding here so anyone following this post will be notified. May not be big deal to some but this may be huge for the question I asked and anyone else who may have followed: Why did the d50 seem to have more "pop" in the colors in my unscientific, side by side comparison?

AN AH HA MOMENT WAS THAT D50 DEFAULTS TO A DIFFERENT COLOR MODE THAN EVEN THE D70. IT DEFAULTS TO COLOR MODE IIIa VERSUS D70'S Ia. MANUAL STATES THIS WILL PROVIDE MORE "VIVID" COLORS IN LANDSCAPES, ETC. POSSIBLE AH AH MOMENT AND I FELT COMPELLED TO ADD THIS HERE!!!

I couldn't believe the "you'll not see a difference, just go buy a camera" replies. The difference was that visible!!! Apples to apples, the d50 probably should have been set to its Ia, or, the Rebel to whatever its Color Enhanced mode may have been. Fair is fair...




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Old Jul 19, 2006, 9:42 AM   #19
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lerraf,



I can't say I blame you for all the research, it's a big and expensive step. I started witha film SLR (Minolta X-570) back in 1990. I learned how to use it and finally got my first autofocus Canon Elan II. My first DSLR was the DRebel and I was more than happy with it, amazing camera at the time. Now with the Rebel XT you get even more bang for your buck and also a starting point. I feel that if you take a Rebel XT with a decent lens and take a 30D or evena D200 and take similar pics, you will be hard pressed to tell them apart. The cost difference is has a lot to do with build quality. The Rebel XT will feel cheaper than the 30D because it is built cheaper. But just as mentioned above, the lenses will outlast the camera by many years. If you invested the 900 bucks into a Rebel XT or Nikon D50 today along with some nice glass than you will be well on your way to great photography.

That being said, if you don't need the latest and greatest equipment, the 20D is on sale at BH Photo for 999 without lens, but that is a great deal. The 20D is an amazing camera and if you can live without the larger LCD and the 3.5 percent spot meter than you can save some big money and have a nice camera. The sports shots by JohnG are amazing and if you are interested in any kind of studio work check out Frank Doorhofs site. His newer work is done with the 5D but the older stuff is the 20D. http://www.doorhof.nl

If you have the extra cash to spend, then get a camera you can grow into but don't cut yourself short with cheap lenses to do it. I've grown intoa 5D and I love it, but I would not recommend it for a beginner. There is something very demotivational when you have a 3000 camera and the pictures still look like crap. Learn first and if you like what you see, then go for it later on.

Just my 2 cents. But as mentioned above, whether you go with the 50D, Rebel XT, D70, 20D, 30D or D200 you can't go wrong. They are all amazing machines, but it takes a craftsman to operate a machine.

Dave
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Old Jul 19, 2006, 10:17 AM   #20
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leeraff wrote:
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I couldn't believe the "you'll not see a difference, just go buy a camera" replies. The difference was that visible!!! Apples to apples, the d50 probably should have been set to its Ia, or, the Rebel to whatever its Color Enhanced mode may have been. Fair is fair...

I guess no one ever did a good job of verbalizing it, but I'm confident myself, peripatetic, NHL and others were all thinking the same thing: Between in-camera processing and post processing you can achieve whatever color enhancements you could want. Neither system is better or worse than the other - they just default to something different - the important thing is - you have the ability in both Nikon and Canon systems to adjust in-camera processing. So, you could bump up enhancement if that's what you prefer. Sorry the discussion got sidetracked and no one ever stated this strait out. Part of the reason may be, many experienced DSLR users either set in-camera processing to 0 (i.e. no adjustments and do adjusting in softwear) or set their own custom adjustments in-camera and not use the defaults. So, color comparison between default settings in bodies hasn't been an attribute many of us cared about. Sorry about the oversight - it might have saved you a bit of time and effort - but in the end a little self-research is not a bad thing
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