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Old Jun 2, 2005, 11:07 AM   #11
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You boys are lost,

the original post :

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I have the canon 20d and was wondering if anyone can tell me the best add on lense to capture "sports shots" i know i need a 2.8 lense, i have a friend that has the sigma 2.8 apo 70-200 lense and i've heard great things about that lenses as well but is there other possibilities at around $800-900? Thanks John
Some suggestions were offered to this. Fair enough. I give another suggestion. With qualification that it was at high cost. Other possibilities were asked for after all. Anyway the information was given as an aid.

NHL,

Typically you had to have a pop, and said it was already established that modern zooms are sharper than primes, somehow implying that this made them better lenses (showing your limited photographic knowledge). Unfortunately I tend to think you are sharpness obsessed and overly concentrated on the pixel peeping MTF scanning that goes on. Which can only effect your photographic abilities in the end.

I agree with you about the pros and theirmultiple bodies (somewhat). However do you think that amateurs don't own multiple bodies and lenses which they trudge around with then. Being as obsessed with spending their money on their hobby (ie taking photographs)as you are with studying your MTF chartstojustify your photographic bargains and aims. Don't be as misguided to think there are not others reading, that may want and have money to spend on different options. So I tend to think your talking nonsense.
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If you think that it matters what lens you use when printing on newsprint then that's fine.
Of course it matters.

1. You still have to get the shot. Properly exposed, clear, sharp, without blur. Do you think you can reduce the lens performance and obtain the same photograph, purely because you know the print resolution will not be high. Again total and complete nonsense.

2. Its not the photographers job to decide how and when the picture will be printed.

3. Who do you think runs and operates a huge amount of the glossy magazines of all kinds on the shelfs of your local news agents. Well that would be thesame people who print the low res newspapers - actually.

By all means keep thinking the way you do...... Forever and a day the only people that will be enjoying your photographs will be your-selfs. Maybe some others have higher ambitions. ?
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Old Jun 2, 2005, 11:21 AM   #12
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boy,

Since your only response to a private message suggesting you would be better received if you demonstrated knowledge and showed some examples of your ability was another childish rant of insults by you, I will ask in a public venue.

You have repeatedly responded to conflicting opionions in a childish manner. Now, I can take personality quirks and childishness from a co-worker or colleague if I believe they are providing value. You elude to working for the press and covering international events but have yet to post a single photo or provide a link to your photography. Most of the folks here - while not pros - at least provide samples of their work. All the comments in the world are purely academic without the final product - photos. So, instead of replying with more childish insults - how 'bout providing a link to your galleries so we can see you are truly the international pro you claim to be. At least then I can take your opinion somewhat seriously.

So, are you going to put up or shut up?
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Old Jun 2, 2005, 11:53 AM   #13
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Big John,

You may not like my sence of humor, fine. I don't particularly care for you private advice either. This is a public forum where all are free to post. Try to remember that.

I see your from the good ol US of A, and the the last time I remembered weren't you boys fighting a warin a distantland to preserve that ability offreedom of speech, democracy for all. Did you forget. I certainly have not,having been there for the past 6 months

I was just about tempted there to as you would say toput up, and post some photographs, that would no doubt open a whole new can of worms here. However the type of photography I have been involved with recently could hardly be called artistic. I tend to think it may more just sour your stomach. Now while I would be more than happy to provide you with examples for you to decide if my credentials were up to scratch or not.I tend to have more sensibilities to-wards the subjects and their own shattered dignity than to worry about what is thought of me by yourself.

So I think I will neither put up, or for that matter shut up.

Thanks for your views. However I fail to see how any of this is relevant to this post.
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Old Jun 2, 2005, 3:58 PM   #14
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I agree with John. Why dont you post some of your pics with your so GREAT L lenses. So many others have posted photos from there L lenses and they look no better than photos taken from sigma or tamron. If your lenses are so superior go ahead and prove all us Sigma guys wrong. Dont worry about turning our stomachs. Remember we shoot with sickmas,we can handle it.

Still loving my 100-300 f/4 Sigma. So glad I returned my 70-200 f/4 Canon L
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Old Jun 2, 2005, 4:04 PM   #15
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The relevence, dear boy, is that you are attacking other people's ability as photographers. I've seen some of their work. I've also posted some of mine. Now I never claimed to be a pro or an expert. However you are making that claim and you are attacking other people's abilities. And so far you've given us nothing in the way of proof that indicates you're not a 13 year old with no actual camera - just someone trolling here trying to throw insults and generalizations around. You mock people for displaying MTF charts and such but you offer no proof of your points - only your opinion with no credibility behind it. And, your opinion would be fine if it was left at that - but you insult anyone who disagrees without trying to provide facts that disprove their arguments. So, once again, you take the coward's way out. If you are the photo journalist you alude to being then your work is already published and therefore a matter of public record. Provide the link - if people choose to view and are repulsed they get what they deserve (myself included). Or if your so concerned with the integrity of the recent victims you've caught on 'film' - provide a link to your work prior to Iraq. Until then, as you said - this is a public forum and I'll call you out every time I wish. You may choose to decline as you have here - but at least the other people reading the thread will know you've declined to prove your case on merits and therefor won't confuse you with the credible people who post here.
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Old Jun 2, 2005, 5:05 PM   #16
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Well, if you are a pro are photography, wouldn't you just sell your work to publishers anyway? Which people will eventually see in magazines/newspapers? You flip stomachs now or then.

But I'm not sure if pictures like that can be properly evaluated. Most of those pictures (I would guess) would have been taken in real time, unposed, unplanned. Those are hard, no matter what lens you have.

But surely pictures in Iraq wouldn't be the only place you've taken pictures?

In my opinion, The sad part about this whole quality lens deal is that most of the people who look at pictures aren't photographers, so they'll have a hard time telling the difference. I can't even see CA on some of the pictures that people claim has CA :shock:
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Old Jun 3, 2005, 3:50 AM   #17
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Boys Boys,

As much as I would like to get involved in a testosterone throwing competition with you,I am rushing to organise myself for the next few days. Not really having the luxury of the 9-5 at the moment. I will be back, if not on Monday, then Tuesday to hopefully answer all your questions and hopefully put your minds at rest.

As I don't have proprietary rights to the daily shots I take it actually makes no difference to what people can handle or not.I should have said nothing. However I understand that strong opinions are usually better backed up with examples. I'll see what I can do in that respect.

Let me just add, if you were not aware. Freelance photographic journalism is not a highly sought after position. The people who are working this way may have proprietary right to their work until sold, but they would far prefer the comfort of a steady income and would take that if offered. And even these days being on a permanent contract is by no means a job for life.In every city there are hundreds of bread and butter photographers, and thousands and thousands worldwide that have never seen the inside leg of Naomi Campbell never mind having an artistic bone in their body. The majority of my colleagues, to whom it is just a job never pick up a camera out side the hours of work. Web sites and portfolios you ask? Oh memories. Definitely the realm of the serious amateur, the ambitious student. That is until my boss gets a hold of them and wringsall artistic merit from their bones. Don't be misguided by the 1 percent of glamorous positions in the industry. Next thing you know, you'll all want to be actors and Presidents.

Enjoy your weekend.

Lorraine Boyce.


oh.ps john, the relevance to this thread was the first answer I made to the original posters question. Take time to have a look. All else is bravado and posturing. Feel free to call me out as often as you like. It wont change my position or knowledge of this equipment.

take care.

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Old Jun 3, 2005, 4:31 AM   #18
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FYI to everyone

http://www.popphoto.com/article.asp?...rticle_id=1170
http://www.camera.canon.com.my/archi...phy/art/art52/

Peace
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Old Jun 6, 2005, 5:19 AM   #19
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JohnG

The photographs presented on this site, and the feeling of the photographers, is with an artistic slant. It is more often the case that a good working photographer will deliberately look to take outall art and dramasurrounding a certain situation in order to present the facts. In other situations the story is written around the shot, which has entered into it a certain lucky element. I think this is wrong in my line of work. Let me explain. I have a shot of an amputee victim who was smiling and joking with me as the wound was being dressed. At one point when I was taking some shots, the girl sneezed. The final shot looked like she was in horrific pain when indeed at this moment it was not the case at all. Photographs like this make it on tonewspapers everyday. Used by agencies and governmentsas propaganda from Africa to new New York. Personally I think it takes a very unscrupulous person to present a photograph with a conflicting story to what really is happening. Of course 50 percent of the time this is what happens.

Secondly you have to understand, this is a job. I would not present these or subsequent photographstaken to back any particular story I have covered in London either. These are not taken for the pleasure of the viewer, or for my ego. It is a factual record and you only have your own integrity to bare witness. Of course it depends on what publications you work for of course.

Anyway there are no images I have to offer from my workthat have merit sitting on a Web page, here or one of my construction. It just doesn't work that way. Photography that shows life as it is today in this way, may in some years to come have different meaning. It may even look interesting and artistic depending on the style of the time. Who knows? Cartier Besson manipulated and constructed his scenes, but this is not apparent to the viewer. It is street photography regarded in a "photojournalist sense". However it is not. Besson was not working for a publication under a boss with time scales. He was an artist and he sought to produce such.

I could be a police photographer. Would my opinion be any less worthy of the forum? I certainly would not submit those photographs for all to look at, and neither would they at all be interesting. However would that mean the knowledge of that person photography unworthy? It seems to be the case as suggested here?

If it would help you give something to vent upon,I will enter into the spirit of things and post some previous collage shots in the critiques section when I have time to scan and present etc. I doubt there would be much interest in last years holiday snaps which is all I have digitally to hand, but then again ..........

Lorraine.










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Old Jun 6, 2005, 11:19 AM   #20
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Lorraine,

I agree 100% that provocative photos need to be accompanied by some description to put them into context. No disagreement there. However, the purposes of my posts replying to your statements have nothing to do with photographic content. My point, if I can rephrase is that your replies have indicated that 'third party' lenses are never good substitutes for Canon L lenses. When other posters have offered photographs to illustrate capability of lenses or MTF charts or any other type of evidence you appear to dismiss the evidence and have blatantly questioned their ability as photographers. But, it appears you want readers of these threads to accept your arguments not on factual evidence but upon the assumption that you are a highly skilled and and experienced professional photographer. Your posts, languages and insults do not lend themselves to professional behavior so I am looking for an example of your work. Think of it in terms of this:

Say I want to hire an architect to build an addition on my house. My goal is to get the best possible craftmanship on that addition. If one architect is insulting and makes inflamatory statements about other architects abilities I am not inclined to want to hire him. But, if that architect does excellent work then this overrides the personality issues and I may hire him over a more pleasant but less skilled architect.

In this case, many people are coming to this forum to learn about photography. They must make a decision on whose advice they follow and whose they don't. Whether or not I like your tone, if you are a credible source I want to consider your advice. Now, based upon your posts you appear to be here to give advice rather than learn from others. So, presumably you want people to actually take your advice. All I'm asking for is some evidence that you know what you're talking about.
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