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Old Nov 10, 2009, 3:29 AM   #31
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Default Is it the Canon Technology or just skill

Susan,... Yes I am familiar with the entire "G" series as I own the G7 and I guided one of my daughters to purchase the G10 for her last trip to Italy. She loves it, especially the shooting scences. The G11 was not going to be availabe in time for her trip. It is not what I'm looking for, since I think it only has a 5x zoom. My G7 will do everything it will do and my 10Megapixels is very sharp and has created all kinds of pictures that I have printed up to 20 x 30", although most of those were stitched images.

My search is for a All-in-One camera, and I think I'm getting closer. I remember in some of your other posts that you were quite familiar with many other cameras, such as Pentax, Nikon, Panasonic, as well as Canon.

I had started looking at the Canon SX10 and then the SX20, but as I said in my last post to that old thread,.. after doing a much closer review of those cameras and looking at my S3, I found that the only changes in the last 3 cameras in that series was the 20X zoom and the increase in Megapixels,... at the cost of a lot of noise. That camera body, LCD, and the EVF need a total overhaul, as it hasn't changed or been upgraded for the last 5 years.

I found a great feature on the "Imaging Resource" site that allows you to review 2 cameras side by side, including all the spec's, camera features, and of course, all of the samples. This way you can really compare the sharpness of both lenses, CA, and the ISO noise, and everything goes to 100% without any effort at all.

I've just finished doing side by side of the Canon SX20, the Nikon P90, the Panasonic FX35, and the Pentax X70. This is really a fantistic feature and the reviews seem to offer much more objective and detailed evaluations. I am very impressed with both the Pentax X70 and the Panasonic FX35.

In comparing just image quality in the 28-50 mm range the Pentax seems just a little sharper and has better color matching than the Panasonic. However the Panasonic beats all the rest at lower noise at all ISO settings. Both cameras have excellent features but the Panasonic has HD video at 30fps but only 18X. The Pentax has HD at 15fps but 24X zoom.

One very stange feature on most all of these cameras is there ability to set the ISO from 80 all the way up to 6400. This doesn't make since as both of them have pretty bad noise at ISO 400, but the FX35 was always better at each setting.

I would appreciate any comments on any of these cameras.
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Old Nov 10, 2009, 10:58 AM   #32
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Good Morning trigger-

Please, Please, Please remember that my name is SARAH not Susan!!!! That has fast become a real issue with me, personally, as it has happened repeatedly. Just, please call me SARAH, that is my name!

Of the cameras mentioned in your post, the Panasonic FZ-35 is the best choice by quite a wide margin. It is the successor camera to the famous and highly valued FZ-28 model. I would not become totally preoccupied with the zoom numbers. It is important to have a 28 mm position on the lens, then everything after 15X is hard to optically see either in the viewfinder or in the print.

Have a great day.

Sarah Joyce
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Old Nov 10, 2009, 12:27 PM   #33
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Sarah,... I'm very sorry. I can't believe I did it again. There is no excuse, other than it was very late at night and I was very tired,... and I had too much wine for dinner.

I don't even know anyone with the name "Susan", so I have no understanding of why I keep using it. One of my bigggest problems throughout my career is that I never went back to re-read any message or mail I sent people. If I did I could catch these kinds of mistakes as well as my horrible use of the english language.

Anyway, thanks for the information about the FZ35. I want to say that I also feel the Pentax x70 has a lot to offer, and I'm wondering if the real difference between the two is that there is some kind of built in Noise Reduction included in the Panasonic camera. They already have built in correction for CA and that is why none of the samples show any CA. I need to re-read the reviews, but this may not be mentioned there. I probably have to get the manual and read it close to find out the answer. The only reason I dropped the Nikon out was because of ISO noise. You would think they would have built in NR.

One of the reviews mentioned that Auto Focus in these long zoom lenses is just a waste of time and that one might as well just use Manual Focus for telephoto work. However, I can't find anything in these reviews where they discuss how to use it and how it works. Again, it sounds like I have to get the manuals.

What experience do you have using the manual focus on long zoom cameras. The S3 that I have is probably exactly the same as the S5, the SX10, and the SX20, and manual is only done in the EVF but then all the exposure has to be determine before hand. Plus you have to hold the MF button and try to focus just a tiny square in the center of the image while you are zoomed. Then if you back out to frame the shot the focus will have changed. Just a waste of time. If I thought the manual focus ring on the Canon kit lens was a joke, this is even worse.

I forgot to mention that I'm going on a 2 week trip with family next year and my goal is to only take one Camera, as we will be 4 people travelling for two weeks in one car. No a lot of extra room. We have agreed to be limited to one bag each and one carry along. We will be doing the east coast from Boston to Washington DC for the Fall colors.

At the rate they introduce new Cameras there will be several news one by then but I don't want to try and get a new camera 3 weeks before going and try and learn it that quick.
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Old Nov 10, 2009, 12:38 PM   #34
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trigger-

At www.dcresource.com Jeff Keller did a combined review of all those 24X optical zoom Chinese made cameras. As I remember it, the Pentax X-70 came in dead last.

Manual focus at long zoom is something I would prefer not to attempt. That is what you hav AF for in a camera.

Sarah Joyce
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Old Nov 10, 2009, 12:47 PM   #35
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Since this thread is about Technology, I thought I would add a new question that has been bugging me. It seems as These superZooms keep getting better and better, and that EVF can continue to improve just because the rest of the electronics has already improved, what is to stop the eventual demise of the SLR all together.

Why build a SLR, with all the cost of the mirror mechanism, prism, with all that cost, when EVF can show you the exact image the sensor sees without all that extra cost. You are still seeing through the lens, and in fact you are actually seeing the image as you are about to save it.

So soon there will be a high function All in One Camera, and maybe it will even have the ability to interchange lenses. Why haven't they done this already???? Because some Marketing guy stood up in the meeting and said, "How dumb are you,.. do you want to kill the golden goose". We make our money selling lenses,... not cameras. We give the cameras away just so they have to buy good lenses. All in one Cameras that don't need any extras will kill 56% of our business"

So the own of the corporation told the young engineer to sit down and then directed the rest of the meeting to focus on "Market Segments"

What say you.
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Old Nov 10, 2009, 1:27 PM   #36
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trigger-

The bottom line is this all in one cameras are not capable of producing the image quality that we see from DSLR cameras, particularly in a low light photo environment.

The Micro4/3 format already does away with the mirror assembly, and prism. Those cameras such as the Olympus EP2 and the Panasonic GF-1 do use inter changeable lenses, and are very expensive.

It is expected that the camera manufacturers participating in the M4/3 or a near m4/3 format might increase dramatically in Janusry 2010 near the time of the PMA show.

Sarah Joyce
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Old Nov 12, 2009, 12:15 AM   #37
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Sarah,.. thanks for your notes. I tried to post this note last night but for some reason this web was down. I checked out the DCresources reviews and it was the Kodak that came in last, not the Pentax x70. I also went through in detail several of their reviews and also tried their "Comparison" review.

I have to say that the way they do their reviews does not impress me. They don't use standard target but move around the city to their favority places or wherever it is they are having lunch. This can very so much from day to day that there is no real way to compare to Cameras or two lenses. A lot of the issues they have are the results of none of the cameras liking the type of lighting in their studio. It's like they never adjusted each camera for the type of lighting in the room.

I clearly prefer the more technical controlled comparison at the Imaging Resourse sitet, where nothing can vary from shot to shot except the camera,... and people, places, and variance of lighting don't affect the image. The female manicans and their clothing are a good example of consistant target, especially when you can put the two shots side by side for review. This assumes that they set the cameras for the type of light used. The targets they use provide excellent side by side comparison of ISO noise, resolution, sharpness, distortion, and color balance.

All in all, DCresource made the following statement about ALL of the SuperZooms, "the leaders in this class (are) Canon and Panasonic". For the many reasons I have already pointed out concerning the "Out of Date" features of the Canon, as well as it's poor ISO noise, I can't see how he can put the Canon anywhere near the top. I guess I will have to go back to Imaging Resource and re-do the FZ35 and the SX20 IS.

I guess that most photographers are "Picture People" and have sufficient experience in looking at pictures to see the "Answers" just by looking at images. I'm too much of an Engineer and I prefer to examine controlled test shots looking for noise, resolution, color control, and sharpness. It seems to me that if you can get those right, the pictures will be right, if the person behind the lens has the SKILL to do it right.

Today I went back to the IR site and did the side by side of the Canon SX20 IS and the Panasonic FZ35. The FZ35 beat the canon for less noise at every ISO setting except 1600 where for some reason the FZ35 was worse. The VA targets clearly show the FZ35 has better resolution. In comparing the images it was also very clear that the FZ25 gave a sharper image at all of the focal lengths. I also did the same comparison with the SX1 and again the Panasonic was better in all those tests.

I think I've done enough reading so my next effort will be to try and demo one at one of the locale Outlets.

I also used the IR site to asscess their review of the Tamron 18-270 lens. For this review they linked to their sister site, SLgear, for the review. It was very detailed and what I got from all of this was that the Canon 18-200 and the Tamron 18-270 are very very close from the 18-200 mm range, at least that is their opinion. Given that piece of info, if I ever come up with the money, I would choose the Tamron lens, since you get the same function offered by the Canon for about the same price, but you get the extra 70mm when you need to use them.

I add more once I can test one myself.
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Old Nov 14, 2009, 8:47 PM   #38
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That sounds like an excellent idea, trigger-

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Old Nov 14, 2009, 8:50 PM   #39
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thats not the complete story on superzooms though. the Canon 18-200 focuses nearly twice as fast as the Tamron.
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 12:15 AM   #40
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Sarah, Hards80,... Finally getting back to this thread. First off let me say how "Pissed Off" I am at this web site. Earlier tonight, just before my dinner, I spent about 20 minutes adding a new post to this thread to give you all the information that I had put together. Of course I was already logged in or I could not start the response. Once I finished the entry and went to post, I was informed I was not logged in and the connection was lost. All that wasted time and effort. This is the third time this has happen to me on this site. Somehow, for some reason, it logs people off after "N" minutes. When I create a response, it takes me a few minutes just to think of what I want to say.

I am a member of dozens of web sites and forums and none of them do this kind of thing. I don't know the reason, but I hope someone can fix it.

Now for a very quick update,..as I don't know how long it will be before I'm logged off again. I took my trip to check out the Tamron Lens and the other SuperZooms. It was a was of time. The camera shop I went to, which was listed on the Tamron site, said they have not had a Tamron lens for over a year, even though they are still considered a registered Dealer.

I was able to test my XSi with some good Canon Lenses, such as the 35-185 IS, and the 18-200 IS. While these were excellent lenses, I could not see enough difference in the output quality to justify the price. In 6 other stores I visited, the only SuperZoom I could find was the Nikon P90 and I tested it with my own chip. I was not overly impressed.

I've done all the comparisons that Sarah has directed me to and at that site where they were testing 5 SuperZooms, all of which were older models, they concluded that Canon and Panasonic were tied for 1st place, and that Olympus came in 3rd.

I have visited the link on this web site for both the Olympus superzoom and the Panasonic Z28 and I really loved all the pictures taken in Norway. Here is a guy that really has the skill. It also helps to be in the right place, but just think about the passion he has to get up early and stay up late just to get those shots. Why does he do it,... because he loves it.

Right now I'm pretty well focused in on the FZ35, if I could only find some place where I could get one in my hads.

One other point,... In all of my searches on many other sites, I finally got some extra education at Imaging Resources about ISO noise, sharpness, and the SRGB color specturm. Many of you have seen my complaint about not being able to get good focus on certain flowers that I keep trying to shoot. Well it turns out the the deep magenta color is the most difficult color to get in high resolution because that color and the deep blue colors at in the corners of the color spectrum and will not come out sharp. The sensors just don't have the spectrum to pick up suffient color at that wave length. This is easily demonstrated in the new ISO test chart used on the IMaging Resourse site. The author (reviewer) explained this in detail and as I examined the picture even with the Canon XSi, those colors are always very low in detail and are somewhat blurred.

Also, the Canon XSi review on that web site have more information than any other site I have ever visited. I believe they do a better review of all Cameras than any other site. The sad news is that their "Forums" are like a goast town.
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