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-   -   to dye sub or not to dye sub ....... (https://forums.steves-digicams.com/dye-sublimation-44/dye-sub-not-dye-sub-20593/)

tim55 Feb 15, 2004 7:08 PM

to dye sub or not to dye sub .......
 
So my head's spinning,, I've wanted to upgrade my BJC8200 and was all set on the new i960 but then started reading about the Canon CP200. And then the HiTi's. Now I not so sure. Most of my printing is 4x6 or smaller. Although I wanted the option of bigger prints and not to be stuck with just glossy paper. Looks like the new HiTi 730PS might be my answer at least about print size if it's not priced out of sight. But then, I could just get both. The wife had quite a laugh when I suggested it a bit ago.

Any comments would be welcome.

Tim

steveJfrank Feb 15, 2004 9:39 PM

If you are looking for the best prints in a 4x6 size the Hi Ti 630 or 640 series is the one. They will beat any ink jets pictures as the Dye Subs are made just for Color Prints. If you are looking for a bigger Dye Sub format look at the Olympus 440 or the Hi Ti 730.
I believe there is a review on this site from Steve for the Olympus. Hope this helps.

dudlew Feb 16, 2004 6:36 PM

steve, have you owned the canon? I have been trying to reach users of this camera for some time but no one responds. Buying the HiTi would have worked out more expensive for me because of my special circumstance in location. (I can only shop through Amazon).

NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THE CANON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I keep hearing HiTi and its driving me crazy!!!!!!!!!!!

WHATS So BAD ABOUT THE CANON FROM A USER'S PERSPECTIVE!!


And yes I do want to shout... not because I am angry, but just to spark a response about the Canon CP200, which I have seen a few people on this site own but just dont talk about.

D

tim55 Feb 16, 2004 7:18 PM

dudlew, i saw a cp200 on saturday at a photo shop here. My first impression was it's a toy. And the salesman didn't have much to say about it either. They don't have HitI there or Epson. He thought a P440 Olympus or a i960 Canon would be best for me. Price is a factor. $400+ for a printer is too much for me.

From looking at reviews, specs and here it sure seems the HiTi has it all over the cp200. Although it would be cool to take to it on holidays.

tim

dudlew Feb 17, 2004 4:22 AM

But did you see any prints?

Thats what I want to know.

PRINT QUALITY is very important.

From the reviews I have read between the 630 and the CP200 the quality difference is not big at all, with the 630 having the slight edge. It would be unfair and foolish in my opinion to compare the Canon to the 640 as there is a big price and spec difference. The review on this site actually praises the printer. But there is not much more info on it than the 2 or 3 reviews that I have found.

That is why I would like to hear what the owners say. reviews are not always the best things to go by as I saw with the Canon S50. Some reviewers love it and some, while not hating it, dont recommend it. Yet from user reviews, the general concession is that its a decent camera, some flaws, but that is to be expected.

Anyway enough of my rant. If you have used it and seen the prints from it, let me know your thoughts on it.

In the end, I may buy an R300, but I can make do with what I have now and the Cp200 which I ordered already until that point in time.

D

steveJfrank Feb 17, 2004 8:25 PM

I would say the canon printer is most likley a good one but have not seen prints from it. The Hi Ti model 630LS cost about 130.00 and produces great pictures seen them.

Greybird Feb 17, 2004 9:52 PM

Hi dudlew
To try and answer you about the Hiti Vs the canon, I have had my 630ps for more than a year, and have had nothing but fine pictures from it. I own A Canon i950 and it prints out grea 8x 10 pics. I have demo'd the Canon dye sub, and the pictures were very good.
But the canon is more expensive, the paper is more expensive. 75 sheets vs 100 for the hiti . I went for Quality and price.
Herb :D

dudlew Feb 18, 2004 10:16 AM

Thank you Greybird.
This is the kind of response I am looking for. At least I know the camera produces good prints, and this is from a user, which I value a bit more than reviews. This is all i have to go by as i cant demo anything where I live.


For me, the HiTi paper would probably work out about the same price or a little more expensive because most sites that will accept my international credit card will charge a shipping fee that nullifies the price advantage. so I could only shop @ Amazon which gives free shipping to the US address I use.

Dudlew

jbruceb Mar 5, 2004 9:03 PM

If most of your printing is 4X6, I would recommend the HiTi PhotoShuttle, which is the fastest HiTi printer at 45 seconds. For larger occasional prints, there are many on-line print services like Ofoto that will do a fine job at reasonable cost.

As far as the supplies, I order the direct from the HiTi store; they often offer 5% off, or free domestic shipping. You would be surprised how small a box holds supplies for 400 prints.

Nicho1as Mar 6, 2004 2:32 AM

Get an Inkjet
 
I have a feeling this might be a dissenting opinion but here goes:

Get an inkjet. You'll likely be happier. Reasons (in no particular order of importance):

1) Cheaper prints. You can easily beat 40 per 4x6 with an IJ
2) Faster prints. A Canon i960 is faster than the HiTi. I believe the Epson R300 is about the same speed.
3) More detail. In my experience, a modern inkjet can resolve more detail than a dye-sub. This is especially true in high contrast areas.
4) MUCH wider gamut. IJ are capable of producing colors that a dye-sub simply can't. Dye subs tend to have more muted, earthy warm tones that warm tone that work great for some photos. But they don't have the range that an IJ has. An IJ can produce the same colors that a dye-sub can then a whole lot more.
5) Wider range of papers. You have a slew of options with an IJ. Don't like the sheen or thickness on one paper? No problem, you have a dozen others to choose from. Prints fading on a certain paper? No problem, Ilford and Epson have you covered.
6) Profiles. If you don't like the accuracy of your HiTi, or perhaps you are happy most of the time but simply want better, how are you going to profile it? As far as I know you can't. An InkJet will provide you with all the covenience of the HiTi with the ability to really take charge of your colors if you need to.

The ONLY advantage that dye-subs offer IMHO is long print life. I think this is largely negated by choosing the right papers for printing. If you're truly worried you can get an IJ that uses pigment inks and you'll have print life that rivals dye-subs. I often read that dye-sub prints "feel" more like lab prints. I don't believe this to be true. You get the right paper for an IJ and it "feels" every bit as good as a dye-sub. Of course it looks better because of detail and color fidelity.

This is based on my experience with a Olympus P400, an i960 and R300. I've never used a Hi Ti, but I read that they're good devices. I expect them to perform about as well as the Olympus. MacWorld has a review online right now of the Epson R300, Canon i960, Oly P440, Canon i950 and some Lexmark printer. The P440 and the Lexmark do the worst. It's an interesting read.

Hope I helped w/o being too inflamamtory.

jbruceb Mar 6, 2004 10:58 AM

Get an inkjet...
 
Nicholas has some good points, however:
HiTi printers can be color adjusted by using the Adjustor software. This is a seperate program downloaded from the HiTi site. I believe it is integrated with the driver for the new 740 printer.
One major advantage of the HiTi over any inkjet is the clear protective coating (either glossy or one of three different matte finishes) that it applies over the print. To me, this advantage is decisive.
In all of the reviews that I have read, I have never come across a claim that a dye sub had a narrower color gamut than an ink jet. I would question this, since they both print with CMY.
The Canon i960 claims 4X6 print speed of 37 seconds in default mode only; the HiTi PhotoShuttle claims 45 seconds with no limitation. However, I don't believe either of them consider data transmission time, which varies with the type and amount of data. Figure about a minute for either of them.
One major advantage of the HiTi is that you always know where you stand with supplies; no running out of ink. 50 prints and the dye ribbon for them come in one box.
One last thought: the HiTi prints cost exactly $.40. A recent report in PC Magazine put the cost of the Canon 4X6 prints at $.53 (using Canon supplies).

Nicho1as Mar 6, 2004 11:50 AM

Re: Get an inkjet...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jbruceb
Nicholas has some good points, however:
HiTi printers can be color adjusted by using the Adjustor software. This is a seperate program downloaded from the HiTi site. I believe it is integrated with the driver for the new 740 printer.

I never said the colors couldn't be adjusted. I said that the printer couldn't be profiled. There is a huge difference. Profiling can make all the difference in getting accurate prints.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbruceb
One major advantage of the HiTi over any inkjet is the clear protective coating (either glossy or one of three different matte finishes) that it applies over the print. To me, this advantage is decisive.

People do love the look of this coat. Personally, I think it provides too much sheen (especially on the gloss).

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbruceb
In all of the reviews that I have read, I have never come across a claim that a dye sub had a narrower color gamut than an ink jet. I would question this, since they both print with CMY.

I've mapped the P400 and it has a much smaller gamut than the i960. The i960 dwarfs the P400. I imagine it would do the same with nearly any dye sub. InkJets don't just print in CMY. They print in CMYK and bright M and bright C (some have different 5th and 6th colors). The color range is significantnly larger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbruceb
A recent report in PC Magazine put the cost of the Canon 4X6 prints at $.53 (using Canon supplies).

I calculate my supply costs at 27 using Epson PPPG with Canon Inks. With generics I've read that you can get to 20 or lower.

jbruceb Mar 6, 2004 2:28 PM

Nicholas, I'm sorry that I misunderstood your comment on profiling a dye-sub printer.
The HiTi lets you load and use any color profile you want in the driver software under preferences. You can choose between using a paticular profile or opting to let the printer choose the best one for a particular image from among the profiles loaded.
I confess that I have never used this feature, being influenced by Richard Lynch ("The Hidden Power of Photoshop Elements 2") who believes that the best color management is NO color management.

MichaelH Mar 6, 2004 3:07 PM

simple answer
 
I believe that any dye sub print will look like any other. This may not be 100% true, but for the most part, don't let print quality be a question between the HITI and the canon.
I would base my decision on price and availability of the media and the quality of the drivers. Go with the company that supports the printer with regular driver updates. (not sony)

tim55 Mar 8, 2004 8:39 PM

Well i picked up a R300 Sunday. It's kinda a compromise right now.
I liked the Hiti 630, even bid on a few on ebay but they seem to go for more than list. I saw this as an easy way to make 4x6's for kids and family. You could put them on the fridge and they'd last more than 6 months. Also no need to worry about profiles and which paper works in this climate etc. But I wanted the ability to make larger prints. And to try out different papers. Could have gone with the i960 but after much reading the Epson seemed a little more friendly. Also came close to getting the R800 but the ink usage and cost plus not being able to see a sample picture scared me away. Not to mention the $400. For what I do now I think the R300 will be fine.

Being a real amature I could have kept using Ofoto but I really wanted to print things myself. I got Photoshop Elements 2 around Christmas but haven't taken the time to get into it.

Thanks for your comments.

minutephotos.com Jul 31, 2004 11:25 PM

I own an older Canon inkjet I think it is an S800, one with 6 ink cartridges. It does print really nice, when I get get the darn thing to act right. It is very inconsistent and hard to get high quality prints. That is why I baught the Olympus p-440, I can get very high quality consistent prints now 100% of the time. With Minimal set-up or configuration. I use the No Color Corection option because I do all that using RAW utilities or Adobe Photoshop CS. I don't want the printer readjusting my settings during the print job. However, I do want the printer to do things exactly as Photoshop CS tells it to do. The Olympus does this very well. I will agree that the Olympus may not be as sharp as an Inkjet, but I am resolving this by taking bettrer photos. I would nbot mind having a high end Canon like the I960 to do larger than 8x10 formats, but the Olympus isa perfect 8X10 printer.

bherring Aug 17, 2004 8:17 PM

i've had 3 ink jet printers 2 epson and one canon the s900. brought the hi ti 630 ps and i won't go back to inkjet for many reasons. regardless of what you buy canon 200 or hi ti you will be pleased

minutephotos.com Aug 17, 2004 11:11 PM

I agree 100%. I started off with several of the Sony Dye-Sub 4x6 printers. I now have about 4 which I use on-site to shoot pictures at night clubs. I use a sony f707 for that because the Night vision focusing and framing is unbeatable in low light situations. I take my memory stick out and put it in the little dye-sub connected to a 12" tv. This allows the customer to see there shots before buying and select quantity. I use multiples for handling multiple customers simutaneously. Now I have an 8x10 dye-sub and LOVE IT... I have a video switch box that aloows me to hook all or them to the tv, but they the Olympus has a built in LCD.:-) This stuff is fast acurate, no computer required and works perfect everytime.

I have an inkjet a Canon S800 6 cartridge deal. When I take shots with My Canon Digital Rebel, the dye-subs still win hands down.


Oh an Inkjet may just have a higher color gamut I wouldn't know because I could never get the thing to work right :roll:. with all the adjustments and paper types, I could never get two good prints consistently...


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