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Old Jul 6, 2003, 8:04 PM   #1
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Default Nikon/Sunpak SLR flash on Nikon digital body?

I own a Sunpak 344D flash that I've used for a long time on Pentax and Nikon SLRs. I'm thinking of buying a Nikon CoolPix 5000 or 5700. Will my Sunpak 344D work properly on the digital cameras? If not, will I need an adapter or should I buy a new flash?

Thanks!
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Old Jul 7, 2003, 8:55 AM   #2
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FYI:
http://www.stevesforums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9636

I guess you can always use it in manual and non-ttl mode ( I mean auto-thyristor/ auto-aperture )
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Old Jul 7, 2003, 10:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: Nikon/Sunpak SLR flash on Nikon digital body?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomzilla
I own a Sunpak 344D flash that I've used for a long time on Pentax and Nikon SLRs. I'm thinking of buying a Nikon CoolPix 5000 or 5700. Will my Sunpak 344D work properly on the digital cameras? If not, will I need an adapter or should I buy a new flash?
The Sunpak 433D and 344D were very popular a couple of years ago among Coolpix 950/990/995 users. But, if it is a D (i.e., dedicated) flash, I am not sure if you can use it successfully with Pentax AND Nikon because they have different TTL flash protocol unless you use different modules. Thus, if you have Nikon TTL compatible modules, it is likely that your 344D will be compatible with the 5700 in TTL mode. I am not certain about the 5000 because I have heard and had experience indicating that some Sunpak units have compatibility problem with the 5000. For example, my Sunpak PZ5000AF for Nikon does not work properly with my 5000; however, some others insisted that their PZ5000AF do work fine with the 5000. Taking more than one test shots before buying is the suggestion.

CK
http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/DigiCam
Nikon Coolpix 950/990/995/2500/4500 user guide
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Old Jul 8, 2003, 2:50 PM   #4
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An off brand dedicated flash should have fewer functions dedicated to the camera compare to the original brand flash > Some of the dedicated functions of the off brand flash are: auto matic mode, auto synchro: when you attached the flash to the camera, the camera CPU will recognize the flash and set the syncro speed, also some other functions such as auto TTL or 3D multi-sensor flash metering in some of the Nikon SLR (distance from camera to subject is calculated in the final exposure, but for what I understand, Sunpak has not release any flash that has this dedicated function to Nikon camera). You need to find out what camera that your Sunpak 433D ( I think this is the non-changeable flash shoe or modude {fix})dedicate to. If it's a Nikon dedicated flash, then you can use on most Nikon SLR and digitcam in auto mode, if it's not, you still be able to use it on the Nikon digicam in manual mode. The Sunpak 433D, 444 D are very popular in the past with film SLR, not with any new digicam, I have one of the sunpak 444d several years ago that I sue with the Canon F1n and the Nikon F3 and it has interchangeable dedicated module including the standard module.

If you read the posts related to the above link, we have a long rebate about Nikon TTL flash, to me, none of the Nikon P/S digicam has the TTL flash function, including the newest coolpix 5400 (replaced the workhorse 5000). Therefore, if you spend money to get the most recent Nikon flash SB-80, you still don't det the TTL flash via any coolpix camera except the Nikon digital SLR such as the D100 or the D1X or D1H.

TTL flash mode will give you very good results, but so des the automatic flash, if it works properly, you can achieve the same excellent results. I worked with both Nikon 3d TTL flash mode and the Canon E-TTL, they both gave me excellent resu;lts, but I prefer to use the Canon E-TTL more because it does work better some difficult situations. Cheers
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Old Jul 9, 2003, 12:09 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
If you read the posts related to the above link, we have a long rebate about Nikon TTL flash, to me, none of the Nikon P/S digicam has the TTL flash function, including the newest coolpix 5400 (replaced the workhorse 5000).
Unfortunately, this is a commonly seen misconception. The Coolpix series cameras CAN use the TTL function of any Nikon TTL compatible flash. Please read page 32 of SB-80DX's manual. "TTL flash" consists of two components. ONE, the camera communicates with the flash to start and stop firing. When a flash is controlled this way, it has the TTL flash mode. This portion is referred as TTL flash control. TWO, the camera must measure the intensity in order to stop the flash firing. If the flash intensity is measured from the image projected by the lens, we will say flash metering is TTL (i.e., Through The Lens). Otherwise, the flash metering is non-TTL. All Nikon film cameras use TTL flash metering; but, all Coolpix cameras measure flash intensity through a sensor elsewhere, and, hence, they do not have TTL flash metering. However, a Coolpix camera as long as it has a hotshoe or a Nikon TTL 3-pin terminal (e.g., 950, 990, 995, 4500, 5000, 5400 and 5700), it is capable of Nikon TTL control. As a result, one can set the flash to the TTL mode and allow the camera to control the flash via TTL control protocol, even though the camera may not measure flash intensity TTL. In fact, a Nikon TTL compatible flash does not have to know if the camera measures flash intensity through the lens. As long as the start and stop firing signals can be passed via the hotshoe, the flash will do TTL flash.

It is not a debatable issue, because it is a FACT in flash technology. Many got confused because of the improper use of the word TTL flash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Therefore, if you spend money to get the most recent Nikon flash SB-80, you still don't det the TTL flash via any coolpix camera except the Nikon digital SLR such as the D100 or the D1X or D1H.
Please read page 32 of SB80DX's manual. By the way, Nikon's D series digital cameras requires D-TTL. The traditional Nikon TTL compatible flashes may not work properly with Nikon D-SLRs.

CK
http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/DigiCam
Nikon Coolpix 950/990/995/2500/4500 user guide
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Old Jul 9, 2003, 9:21 AM   #6
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How long you intend to bs on your FACT of the TTL issue on the Nikon coolpix? You want to find out the real fact? talk to Nikon. Have you ever notice that Nikon never claim they have the TTL flash mode on any of their coolpix camera except ther DSLR on any sale brochure? Several test reports on many major magazine already confirmed the facts. I have already told you, if you put a ND filter or a polarizer over the lens, will the flash recorgnize the filter factor over the lens? So stop the non-sense bs from your crap theory and get on with life... that's my .02 cents
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Old Jul 9, 2003, 8:11 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
How long you intend to bs on your FACT of the TTL issue on the Nikon coolpix? You want to find out the real fact? talk to Nikon. Have you ever notice that Nikon never claim they have the TTL flash mode on any of their coolpix camera except ther DSLR on any sale brochure? Several test reports on many major magazine already confirmed the facts. I have already told you, if you put a ND filter or a polarizer over the lens, will the flash recorgnize the filter factor over the lens? So stop the non-sense bs from your crap theory and get on with life... that's my .02 cents
Don't you know how to read English? Don't you read SB80DX's manual? My post clearly indicated that Coolpix cameras do not have flash TTL metering; but, they do have TTL control. Otherwise, why does Nikon indicate to put Nikon SB80DX in the TTL mode? Please stop your [email protected] argument and get to read a few good books in TTL theory before spread your bs argument. I respect anyone's reasoning; but, I never respect someone using ugly language and claiming to know what he/she does not.

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Old Jul 10, 2003, 7:26 AM   #8
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TTL control without TTL, now that's some oxymoron!

The flash manual can say anything provided one connected the unit to the right camera with the proper TTL control... Cameras such as the Coolpixes with no TTL will get you just that. Bottom line any 3rd party dedicated flash will provide the same level of control from the camera without the added expense! Just think about all the poor souls who had paid extra thinking they're getting the TTL feature when in fact they're not getting the 'Through-The-Lens' portion...

http://www.moose395.net/f5/flash.html


BTW It's more than just start and stop control signals, here are some of the other features missing out of the Speedlight with the Coolpixe's control (depending on the model) which are interchanged between the camera and the flash through a serial protocol but available on other Nikon's SLR:
o No IR illumination in the dark for AF
o No power zoom on the head to follow the camera's zoom
o No wireless TTL control (yes, it's also part of the flash bursts, but not available even on their top line dSLRs)
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Old Jul 11, 2003, 1:01 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHL
TTL control without TTL, now that's some oxymoron!
Before we can have a meaningful debate or argument, you need to learn some fundamentals regarding electronic flashes. Please read a very authoritative book, "The Manual of Photography", edited by R. E. Jacobson, S. F. Ray, G. G. Attridge and N. R. Axford, especially pp. 29-38. Here is an easier one: Thom Hogan's "The Nikon Flash Guide." Otherwise, we do not have a common terminology. If you wish to see an oxymoron, here is one: TTL flash? can the flash shoot through the lens? :lol: Some terms were simplified through the years by salesperson, commercials, non-technical people, and writers. Eventually, its original meaning of the term is twisted to another dimension. Are you aware of that TTL means something else before "through-the-len"? In fact, the camera and flash manufactures also contributed to this twisting significantly. Unfortunately, "TTL flash" is such a good example. Consider Nikon's matrix metering as an example. Is there a matrix in the meter? Or, is there a metering technology involving a matrix"? No, it is just Nikon's marketing slogan for the multi-segment metering scheme. We should not be fooled by these terms whose meaning have been twisted somewhat. We should know the actual meaning or the truth behind the term. As a matter of fact, there is no oxymoron in TTL control because it was called that way since its very beginning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NHL
The flash manual can say anything provided one connected the unit to the right camera with the proper TTL control... Cameras such as the Coolpixes with no TTL will get you just that. Bottom line any 3rd party dedicated flash will provide the same level of control from the camera without the added expense! Just think about all the poor souls who had paid extra thinking they're getting the TTL feature when in fact they're not getting the 'Through-The-Lens' portion...
Could you please say "Coolpix cameras have no flash TTL metering"? This will make your argument clear and not misleading. No one, Nikon included, said Coolpix cameras have TTL flash metering. Now, what is the meaning of a "dedicated" flash? It means a flash that recognizes and honors Nikon's TTL protocol. So, if you say "dedicated", you are actually saying and agree with the fact that there is a particular TTL flash control protocol. As I mentioned here a number of times, you can design a device that transmits the Nikon TTL flash protocol to a dedicated (or Nikon TTL compatible) flash to start and stop firing that flash. Is this a TTL control? Without this protocol, the flash can only fire and does not know when to stop. Is this a "dedicated" flash? Your problem is that you emphasized TTL (through-the-lens) too much and forgot it is only the metering portion. There is a second control portion. See the above books for the details. This is what I have learned when I was an undergraduate student taking photographic optic and technology as a minor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHL
BTW It's more than just start and stop control signals, here are some of the other features missing out of the Speedlight with the Coolpixe's control (depending on the model) which are interchanged between the camera and the flash through a serial protocol but available on other Nikon's SLR:
o No IR illumination in the dark for AF
o No power zoom on the head to follow the camera's zoom
Of course "start" and "stop" are part of the total number of signals as I mentioned in this thread several times. But, the above items are not part of the TTL control signals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHL
No wireless TTL control (yes, it's also part of the flash bursts, but not available even on their top line dSLRs)
I agree, no argument here. This is a known fact and a deficiency of Nikon's D-SLR cameras in D-TTL mode.

CK
http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/DigiCam
Nikon Coolpix 950/990/995/2500/4500 user guide
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Old Jul 11, 2003, 6:42 AM   #10
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Quote:
Consider Nikon's matrix metering as an example. Is there a matrix in the meter? Or, is there a metering technology involving a matrix"? No, it is just Nikon's marketing slogan for the multi-segment metering scheme.
There's no matrix in the meter, but the meters are arranged in a matrix pattern linking to the separate focusing points. The '3D' metering add a 3rd dimension to couple the distance info from the lens is focusing on to put a weighting average on the location of the sensor element(s) of this matrix so it's more than a marketing slogan!

Quote:
Are you aware of that TTL means something else before "through-the-len"? In fact, the camera and flash manufactures also contributed to this twisting significantly.
YES - Transistor-Transistor-Level that I mentioned on the previous thread!
http://www.stevesforums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9636
... and include here for your reference as well. Any undergrad would have realized this since it's the basis for all digital logic although most cameras run at lower 3.3V but still within this logic level:
http://www.twysted-pair.com/74lsxx.htm


Quote:
If you wish to see an oxymoron, here is one: TTL flash? can the flash shoot through the lens?
This is the key point and is no oxymoron and where you're the only person who is missing the point! The flash burst bounces off the subject and is reflected back to the camera Through-The-Lens and to the sensor behind it. The sensor on the Coolpix is outside the lens hence no-TTL flash. Therefore the filter test that TuanOKC also mentioned -> the pictures would have been underexposed!


TTL control without TTL is an oxymoron and is totally misleading if Nikon really intends to confuse their customer since we are talking about TTL flash here. Every cameras and almost any digital devices are TTL compatible... Even my kid's Gameboy has TTL control, but no TTL flash here either! One might as well call a film camera digital since it has a digital processor in it for controls... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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