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Old Sep 24, 2003, 12:54 PM   #1
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Well, we can found Minolta DiMAGE Z1 with 10x (at least with aspherical elements) around $400 or Toshiba PDR or Panasonic FZ with IS around same $400.
So, it's not impossible - make a WinItAll camera for a decent $500.
I understand, that Fuji wan't cut sales of S602 and have had to make it work worse (and it succeded). But the price around $400 would be much more reasonable.
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Old Sep 24, 2003, 3:03 PM   #2
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Hello Klyak
Presumably you were replying to my previous message about Oly and Pana cams.
Gotta tell you that Minolta Z1 is same price as S5000, but cam is same material as S5000, also plastic. But I like the S5000 better since is rubberrized all around Z1 too platic.
The Z1 seems to be very fast. But no indepth review is done yet, also it's not possible to compare with S5000 yet.
So for now it's all hearsay.
Lens quality I can't say anything about since I've not seen test pics let alone real pics of it. The Toshiba on the otherhand is known to me and I can tell you that the quality is about the same. Though ihe Dynamic range of the Fuji is better and noise is about the same. The S5000 is relatively new and prices will drop undoubtedly.
But if you're still doubtful than you can opt for a S602z which price will probably drop to just above that of a S5000.[/u]
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Old Sep 25, 2003, 5:17 PM   #3
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Well, testing camera for a little I've concluded:
1) 10x - impossible to use, if you are not walking streets with a tripod.
2) Manual focus - difficult to use with given EVF and without showing distance (well, a ring would be of greate help too).
3) 800 ISO - without noise reduction - needs a lot of PhotoShop-ing afterwards.
4) 6MP - hardly usable 'course of no gain in detail and noise.
Looks, like all this features have only one purpose - sell the camera. I really like SuperCCD 4 for what it is, but I will look for S7000.
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Old Sep 26, 2003, 2:06 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klyak
Well, testing camera for a little I've concluded:
1) 10x - impossible to use, if you are not walking streets with a tripod.
2) Manual focus - difficult to use with given EVF and without showing distance (well, a ring would be of greate help too).
3) 800 ISO - without noise reduction - needs a lot of PhotoShop-ing afterwards.
4) 6MP - hardly usable 'course of no gain in detail and noise.
Looks, like all this features have only one purpose - sell the camera. I really like SuperCCD 4 for what it is, but I will look for S7000.
1) are there any cameras with 10x lens NOT STABILIZED that you can use *WITHOUT* a tripod? I guess not. Stabilized lens are very very expensive, so for $400 you get what you paid for.

2) Manual focus works great if you use the LCD instead of the viewfinder. At least it works for me. Yup, you're right though, some kind of "showing distance" would be better.

3) Any other 800 ISO camera in this price range you know that doesn't ? Nope, guess not.

4) No gain in detail??? I do not concur with your results. My attempts to take pictures of the moon have shown a BIG improve in detail from 3Mp to 6Mp RAW.

Cheers,
veedee.
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Old Sep 26, 2003, 12:26 PM   #5
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Default Yeppppp...

1) Stabilazing digital image - a software problem(like video cameras doing) with cost of 10 pixel from each size. Knowing, that S602 already have it - it's a matter of copy-paste. Maybe with minor changes.
2) In the shine light I doubt it, but I'll try.
3) Noise reduction - it's small program again. A per-pixel substraction a black(diafragma closed) image from the recent one.
It can be written in 2 hours.
4) I've made a picture of a fregate from 50 m in all 4 resolutions.
Then I've upped smaller resolution pics to 6MP in PhotoShop 7 and looked for smallest detail recognizible. And there were NO gain between 6 and 3 MP.

Talking about the cost - let's hire a team of a Leader ($10 000 p/m) and 2 programmers ($5 000 p/m) and will give them 1 month for copy-paste (I know - they are lazy, I am programmer myself :P) and a month for testing of followinf features - noise reduction, distance showing, image stabilizing and chosing JPG compression level (all of it we can take from S602's firmware for SAME resolutions) - it will be like $50 000 proyect.
If Fuji is planning to sell as low as 50 000 cameras worldwide - it wil be .... uffff.... $1 per camera! Would you pay a dollar for all that?
I willn't be surprised, if somebody will tell me, that there WERE pulled off this features last moment before introduction, for marketing purposes (not beating S602).
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Old Sep 26, 2003, 12:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: Yeppppp...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klyak
1) Stabilazing digital image - a software problem(like video cameras doing) with cost of 10 pixel from each size. Knowing, that S602 already have it - it's a matter of copy-paste. Maybe with minor changes.

[...]

4) I've made a picture of a fregate from 50 m in all 4 resolutions.
Then I've upped smaller resolution pics to 6MP in PhotoShop 7 and looked for smallest detail recognizible. And there were NO gain between 6 and 3 MP.

[...]

**) I willn't be surprised, if somebody will tell me, that there WERE pulled off this features last moment before introduction, for marketing purposes (not beating S602).
1) I always thought that stabilized lens is done in "hardware" and not software only. S602 has it??? I doubt it.
Of course, you're refering to "software stabilization". That is VERY POORLY done and is not worth it. A camera with stabilized *LENS* costs a lot more than a normal one. Otherwise, every producer would just "copy and paste" the software as you assume it works.

4) I still claim that 6Mp has gain over 3Mp. Please post some pictures to see if it's a problem with your camera.

**) I'm also a programmer/system administrator. Marketing is a key component of the world we live in, and although we like it or not, we must live with it. Trust me, the cost of an s5000 is not higher than $150.

Cheers,
veedee.
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Old Sep 26, 2003, 5:13 PM   #7
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Quote:
1) I always thought that stabilized lens is done in "hardware" and not software only.
Quote:
2) That is VERY POORLY done and is not worth it.
Choose one, please. Or you know how it works or not.
This "poor" stablization is used in all modern cam-recorders,
as hardware stablization easy to breake. You don't have to believe me - Yahoo will help us with software image stabilization

Quote:
S602 has it??? I doubt it
No need to doubt. Again -> Yahoo, put s602 review stabilization - you'll find something like
included the Nikon 5700, Fuji 3800, Fuji S602, HP850, Sony 717
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Old Sep 27, 2003, 2:55 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klyak
Quote:
1) I always thought that stabilized lens is done in "hardware" and not software only.
Quote:
2) That is VERY POORLY done and is not worth it.
Choose one, please. Or you know how it works or not.
This "poor" stablization is used in all modern cam-recorders,
as hardware stablization easy to breake. You don't have to believe me - Yahoo will help us with software image stabilization

Quote:
S602 has it??? I doubt it
No need to doubt. Again -> Yahoo, put s602 review stabilization - you'll find something like
included the Nikon 5700, Fuji 3800, Fuji S602, HP850, Sony 717
I do know how it works, but apparently you do NOT. Don't give me that "yahoo" thing please, as google owns us all

"IS lenses contain motion sensors and moveable elements that automatically respond to camera shake to counteract that motion, giving you steadier -- and sharper -- images. This technology has been around for awhile in some of Canon's hand-held lenses, most recently the very popular 100-400 mm f/5.6L IS zoom."

THAT is Image Stabilization done in "hardware". EVERYTHING ELSE IS CRAP! Sorry for the language, but that's the truth. Software image stabilization is like ... digital zoom...

Fuji S602 DOES NOT HAVE "hardware" Image Stabilization. Thus, it doesn't have any good one.

Cheers,
veedee.
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Old Sep 27, 2003, 5:59 AM   #9
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Default Wrong Choice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by veedee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klyak
Well, testing camera for a little I've concluded:
1) 10x - impossible to use, if you are not walking streets with a tripod.
2) Manual focus - difficult to use with given EVF and without showing distance (well, a ring would be of greate help too).
3) 800 ISO - without noise reduction - needs a lot of PhotoShop-ing afterwards.
4) 6MP - hardly usable 'course of no gain in detail and noise.
Looks, like all this features have only one purpose - sell the camera. I really like SuperCCD 4 for what it is, but I will look for S7000.
1) are there any cameras with 10x lens NOT STABILIZED that you can use *WITHOUT* a tripod? I guess not. Stabilized lens are very very expensive, so for $400 you get what you paid for.

2) Manual focus works great if you use the LCD instead of the viewfinder. At least it works for me. Yup, you're right though, some kind of "showing distance" would be better.

3) Any other 800 ISO camera in this price range you know that doesn't ? Nope, guess not.

4) No gain in detail??? I do not concur with your results. My attempts to take pictures of the moon have shown a BIG improve in detail from 3Mp to 6Mp RAW.

Cheers,
veedee.
I cannot but agree with veedee here.
1.Good IS lenses have hardware equipment integrated. Those function more or less like an electronically steered suspension, more or less damping the movements off the camera. This is an expensive manufacturing item. So camera's have it will be more expensive than camera's that don't have IS.
2.All (p)reviews of S5000 never said anything about an equal or better EVF/LCD combination than S602z also no possible magnification of Focus centre as the above mentioned.
3.As for noise at ISO 800 also have to agree with veedee. And want to add that this is the highest ISO setting possible, which means it's the real limit of getting useble results. Again other more expensive camera's offer maybe ISO 1600 but apart from maybe a real mirror dSLR they will contain higher amounts of noise too.
4.All my 6MP pics have a little more detail than the 3MP ones, but than again how do you measure it. Blow up the 3MP to 6 or resize 6 to 3MP. If a 3MP is blown up to 6 than the picture has less detail. I use this example because allmost every reviewer rattles about the interpolation.
Also I read, you think Minolta Z1 would be a better choice.
I wonder. It has not been (p)reviewed thorouhgly and there are no pics available to compare.
I'm sorry but I think you bought the wrong camera for you're needs. A better investigation would have let you in a very different direction being a high quality prosumer camera like Minolta 7HI(future A1), Sony F717(future F828) or maybe Fuji S602z(future S7000), but it sounds more like Canon 300D.
And than I start to calculate money and The above will cost you at least a $200-250 more than the camera you have now.
In the Netherlands we have a saying; "Voor een dubbeltje op de eerste rang willen zitten" which means something like you want prime quality and features for an impossible low price.
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Old Sep 27, 2003, 11:41 AM   #10
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Default A lot of critics

Quote:
I do know how it works, but apparently you do NOT
What a presuming. And how works this "crap", you mentioned?
While hardware stabilizators moving whole block (matrix-lens) - software stabilizators are moving the image within "spare-pixels" zone with the same result. Quality depends only from quantity of pixels, you can spare for that.
This "CRAP" is needed to avoid diffusing of thin lines at the corners of a pic, that you will have even with 1/2000 exp. for 10x.
Quote:
expensive camera's offer maybe ISO 1600
ISO, for CCD's - it's an abstract. Every company can force their matrix to 1600 - limiting factor is quality.
Quote:
you want prime quality and features for an impossible low price
Again folks - this is not about the features. That's about usability, of what I've already bought. Let's say - if I payed for the features - it's for use it, not for showing camera to my girlfriend or spec-posting on the forum. I bought a somth. that was declared as a "prosumer camera", I choosed features I need (and colour of my favorite pants wasn't among them) and payed what they've asked.
I wann't marketing dances around my $500 ($450+tax) - I want to use this features and I wan't have a $500 quality. That's all.
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