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Old Apr 16, 2004, 4:56 PM   #11
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Default Re: S7000 Resolution Questions

Easily measurable. The difference in extinction on the S602 is 1375 l/pph at 3MP as compared to 1500-1510 l/pph at 6MP mode.



3MP upsampled to 6MP for easy side by side reference.

Red circled areas notate where lines begin to fail to remain distinct.

-Chris
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Old Apr 17, 2004, 12:37 PM   #12
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Jyst to add my thoughts.

I have an F602Z. I put it on a tripod, set it to AUTO and pointed it at my bookcase. I used the delay timer to eliminate any human error when pressing the shutter.

I took one at 6mb fine and one at 3mp fine. You can see the results at

www.manhoc.co.uk/misc/dscf0278.jpg (6mp) and www.manhoc.co.uk/misc/dscf0279.jpg (3mp)

To my eye, on the screen, the 3mp one is 'sharper' and has more clarity. But, please check for yourself. If you spot any discrepancies etc please let us know.


Alan
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Old Apr 17, 2004, 2:25 PM   #13
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To my eye, on the screen, the 3mp one is 'sharper' and has more clarity. But, please check for yourself.
This is the problem. The 3MP will look sharper/better when viwed at 100 percent vs. the 6MP at 100 percent. The 6MP mode has more total data, but spreads the data across a larger area, proportionately, then the 3MP mode. For example, take the 3MP mode and dowsample it to 1MP size. Now this 1MP picture is much sharper looking at 100 percent then the 3MP image. However ,it contains significanlty lessd data. It is not nescarrily accurate to view a 100 percent image in this manner. It would be more accurate to upsample the smaller image to match the physical size of the larger image, then cmopare both(since they ar now both the same size). Altneratly, make large prints, using each version. This is in effect the same as upsampling to the same size. Just a hard copy.

-Chris
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Old Apr 17, 2004, 3:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan sh
Jyst to add my thoughts.

I have an F602Z. I put it on a tripod, set it to AUTO and pointed it at my bookcase. I used the delay timer to eliminate any human error when pressing the shutter.

I took one at 6mb fine and one at 3mp fine. You can see the results at

www.manhoc.co.uk/misc/dscf0278.jpg (6mp) and www.manhoc.co.uk/misc/dscf0279.jpg (3mp)

To my eye, on the screen, the 3mp one is 'sharper' and has more clarity. But, please check for yourself. If you spot any discrepancies etc please let us know.

Alan
I agree with you Alan. The 3mp is sharper. When viewing pics, my Windows XP resizes larger-than-window sized pics to be able to view each pic at 100%, so onscreen, the 3mp and the 6 mp are exactly the same size.

Chris: Yes, the 6mp has more data, but the camera added some of that data with interpolation, so it's guessing what should go between pixels to make the 6mp file (recorded pixels) from 3mp (which is the camera's effective pixel). So edges aren't as sharp and colors aren't rendered 100% accurately.

That's why my 3mp 8"x10" printout looks better than my 6mp 8"x10" printout.
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Old Apr 17, 2004, 6:04 PM   #15
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Chris: Yes, the 6mp has more data, but the camera added some of that data with interpolation, so it's guessing what should go between pixels to make the 6mp file (recorded pixels) from 3mp (which is the camera's effective pixel). So edges aren't as sharp and colors aren't rendered 100% accurately.
The problem is your idea of what the 602 does at sensor level is incorrect. The 3MP sensor collect 3MP data point. But this data is not usable in it's native orientaion. Therefor the first thing that is done during the demosiac algorythym is the file is rendered as 6MP. The 3MP is a downsampled version of the 6MP image. This is what is required with the Fuji SCCD. I explained this in this post with some simple ascii illustrations near the beginnning of the thread.

Don't belileve me? Check FUji's own documentation. Check with the software engineers producing RAW file convertors on the dpreveiw.com fuji talk forum. Inquire with programmers marf, David134 or S7RAW.

Sharpness differences, as you are trying to explain, can be a product of many different things. ONe possibility is your printer's native print driver. Most print drivers use nearest negibor interpolation. With the 3MP file(say your are printing 8x10"), the image will be interpolated a greater degree then the 6MP image. The edges will be slightly more acute on the 3MP output since the degree of nearest niegbor interpolation was higher to achieve the same print size as compared to if you printed the 6MP image to the same target size. I suggest using an automated printer interpolation program such as Qimage or manually interpolating to the native input DPI of the printer with imaging software prior to printing. Using the automated program(Quimage) is far more efficient. Doing these two things will remove the issue presented by allowing the print driver to interpolate using such a crude method as nearest neighbor.

-Chris
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Old Apr 17, 2004, 7:20 PM   #16
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So why does the Fuji offer a 6mp file (in my case with the S602Z) if I have to go through all that just to print out a better picture that if I had just used a 3mp file?
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Old Apr 17, 2004, 9:05 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by JerryF
So why does the Fuji offer a 6mp file (in my case with the S602Z) if I have to go through all that just to print out a better picture that if I had just used a 3mp file?
I don't fully understand your question. Please clarify.

-Chris
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Old Apr 17, 2004, 11:19 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by WmAx
I don't fully understand your question. Please clarify.

-Chris
I guess my question is why would I ever need to use the 6mp setting to take pictures when I want print 8 x 10s?
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Old Apr 18, 2004, 5:08 AM   #19
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The problem is your idea of what the 602 does at sensor level is incorrect. The 3MP sensor collect 3MP data point. But this data is not usable in it's native orientaion. Therefor the first thing that is done during the demosiac algorythym is the file is rendered as 6MP. The 3MP is a downsampled version of the 6MP image. This is what is required with the Fuji SCCD. I explained this in this post with some simple ascii illustrations near the beginnning of the thread.

Don't belileve me? Check FUji's own documentation. Check with the software engineers producing RAW file convertors on the dpreveiw.com fuji talk forum. Inquire with programmers marf, David134 or S7RAW.

Sharpness differences, as you are trying to explain, can be a product of many different things. ONe possibility is your printer's native print driver. Most print drivers use nearest negibor interpolation. With the 3MP file(say your are printing 8x10"), the image will be interpolated a greater degree then the 6MP image. The edges will be slightly more acute on the 3MP output since the degree of nearest niegbor interpolation was higher to achieve the same print size as compared to if you printed the 6MP image to the same target size. I suggest using an automated printer interpolation program such as Qimage or manually interpolating to the native input DPI of the printer with imaging software prior to printing. Using the automated program(Quimage) is far more efficient. Doing these two things will remove the issue presented by allowing the print driver to interpolate using such a crude method as nearest neighbor.

-Chris
I looked at my pictures with PSP 8 - both at 100% so no visual interpolation.

As for the 3-6-3 idea. I know they do that with the S2 and the 7000 but do they do that with the 602 ? If so, why do we lose sharpness at 6mp and then get it back at 3mp ? Unless the algorithm is so good it removes the interpolated pixels only......
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Old Apr 18, 2004, 12:25 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by JerryF
Quote:
Originally Posted by WmAx
I don't fully understand your question. Please clarify.

-Chris
I guess my question is why would I ever need to use the 6mp setting to take pictures when I want print 8 x 10s?
You don't need too use 6MP. 3MP is usually fine. 6MP is just a little better, in resolution.

-Chris
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