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Old Sep 24, 2004, 1:02 AM   #11
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Clyde

well that is what coming out of my camera. Could you take a picture if blue skies and post part of it here? Please take at 6MP on auto or P with iso 200. Let see how your camera does. May be mine is defective so I still can exchange it. And yes, this saturday I will print some at costco. They also use fuji equipment so we'll see what develops, like polaroid said .

Thanks,
Alex


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Old Sep 24, 2004, 9:14 PM   #12
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Hi Alex,

Might I also suggest you start reading the Fuji talk list a Dpreview, lot's of very knowledgeable people there sharing and discussing info about the S7000 and the rest of the Fuji consumer camera line, I have found it to be a tremendous resource of info and advice.

Clyde
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Old Sep 25, 2004, 11:15 PM   #13
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So this weekend I got my big prints. I printed at Costco 18x12 prints. I believe it is A3 format outside of US. I did get prints there before several times and can confirm that quality was excellent.

The noise is present throughout the image especially in the skies and on bright surfaces in the shade, like a house trim and a window trim. Surfaces look dirty grey. I printed several prints at 12 and 6 MP soft sharpening. I could not tell which one was which. This is good news, I guess. Costco has new crappy software that replaces file name with some number so you cant tell your pictures apart. They used to have software that printed filename on the back of a picture. No more of that nonsense! Who needs filename? Not me, I am not that sick. (That is what George Carlin used to say).



Anyway the noise is present and very pronounced. I used "noiseware community" to remove it and then image is good but it looses some details. Image is still very good quality and high-resolution although a bit over-exposed (that is my fault but I did not have the time get exposure right). Colors are excellent and if not for the noise this would be an excellent camera, may be even perfect.



I also printed some 4x6 without any processing and they came out excellent as far as noise concerned. Very crisp and clean. But so do pictures from my sony u30 camera, which is 2 MP and barely could be called a camera.



Bottom line is if you are printing 4x6 or slightly bigger images this camera does an excellent job. So it does when you look at the images at screen resolution, whatever your screen resolution happens to be. If you are printing large images like 18x12 prepare to get noise removal software and learn how to use it.



I was also thinking about why fuji does not decrease iso and how could they let this product out? Here is my theory and it is based on working for another big consumer electronics company for several years. I do not believe fuji intentionally made these mistakes. Ether they were unable to fix problems and get iso and noise under control or they rushed this product to the market for christmas or some such date. What puzzles me is why they do not use this SCCD censor in a normal sensor mode and remove noise at expense of some resolution? You just need one more raw mode. Their jpeg compression policy is continued in E550 line as well as SCCD policy. I examined several available full size images produced by E550 and the same grainy SCCD pattern is present in all of them. It is not nearly as strong as with S7000 probably due to lower iso settings. They also do not offer jpeg quality selection on E550 except in 12MP mode. My thinking is – people who get this sort of cameras want as many controls as they can get. The more the merrier. Why not satisfy a crowd and give some extra controls like FINE, SUPER FINE, SUPER DUPER FINE? It maybe pointless but people will love them. Personally I never used low quality on my old sony camera but it was there in case I needed it. It is a HIGH END (prosumer) camera after all.

I went to fuji website and did a search for "firmware". 0 matches, what a surprise! Ether their search is lame or they never updated firmware on any of their cameras. I also got a reply to my email to a fuji support about this camera. They do not have any updates and did not say if they have a plan for one. And yes I know this subject was beaten to death.

Anyway, this is just my theory and it doesn't mean squat. My bottom line is that I returned S7000 to the store and back to reading camera reviews. I might just bite the bullet and get a rebel because that seems to be the only camera people are consistently happy with. What a shame for me, I liked everything about S7000 except image noise.



Thanks for advice and for reading this to the end,

Alex

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Old Sep 26, 2004, 8:51 AM   #14
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clyde,

His (s7000users) sample is normal for S7000 pics. The superccd and compression on this model DOES show this effect when viewing on a monitor. On prints at 8x10 it will not show but larger than that and it does show up. FYI as well - I sometimes submit images to stock agencies and so far, every images from my S7000 has been rejected with the reason given "accessive noise".

Here are a couple of samples - as you mention, it's easier to see it on a monitor rather than in "normal sized prints", but regardless, it IS an issue with this and a few other Fuji models...


Sample Link:
http://www.mindspring.com/~gregory-h/s7000compress.jpg

I'll look around for a sky photo, but I can tell you, mine were identicle in appearance to s7000users, etc.

Greg

P.S. S7000 user: You may wish to avoid using yellow text in your posts. Many people change the default "white on black background" setting and use a white background in these boards, so yellow is too hard to see. Just a suggestion.


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Old Sep 26, 2004, 12:01 PM   #15
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Greg,

It was not my intention to use yellow at all. This message board software is the worst I have seen in a long time. Why do you need text formatting in message boards? I wrote my reply in MS Word and pasted in to the boards. It came out black on black, which, you would agree, even harder to read than yellow. So after trying all kinds of things I made it yellow. Now Itried to fix itbut I am sure that would cause problem for someone else withanotherbackground.

Regarding camera I have a question. If you clean noise with some software will your image be accepted? I tried all kinds of different things but there always something left. Especially with high detail image it is hard to clean noise without affecting detail. What is you experience? My next choice is Nikon 5700, which is a tad more expensive than S7000 but makes nearly perfect images as far as I can tell from the samples.

I think noise has to do with SCCD combined with JPEG compression and in camera sharpening. If your remove last 2 by shooting raw noise is somewhat reduced. I wonder if you can take a raw image and throw away all the R-pixels reducing it to a normal 6MP CCD would the noise persist?

Is there anyone with thoughts it this area?

Thanks,
Alex
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Old Sep 26, 2004, 12:03 PM   #16
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Hi Greg,

To each his own I guess. I personally do not see a problem with noise in the S7000 pics, I would rarely ever print anything at larger than 8x10, and I certainly don't have time to sit and microscopically examine each pic at 100-200% on my monitor looking for noise. All digital cameras regardless of price or brand produce some amount of artifacts and noise, the real consideration is what will work for you.

Clyde
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Old Oct 4, 2004, 3:23 PM   #17
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Firmware upgrades are a standard in the technology world, so are variable compression levels in digital cameras... unless it'sa cheap/low-end model, which theS7000 is not.Fuji conformsdoes offer"Normal" and "Fine" compression levelsat12MP... but not in 1MP/2MP/3MP/6MP!?! Perhaps Fuji was hoping to sellxD cards by forcing users who desired less compressionto select 12MP/Fine - a mode that results in images with a larger file size.Too bad the majority uses the cheaperCF cards.

Whatever the reason, I can not understand why Fuji's refuses toreleasefirmware updates. Have they lost interest in the S7000? Are they not committed to their products and those that purchse them?There is a handful of "tweaks" Fuji could offer via software that would make users like us much more satisifed with our cameras. IMO, a firmware update from Fuji would show committment to their products andthe desire for improvement. This is something I look for in a company... which ultimately affects brand loyalty down the road. My next camera probably won't be a Fuji.

With regards to noise removal, I suppose Fuji finds our reliance onthird-party noise removal programs acceptable.

That said, I do enjoy my S7000 but after using it heavily for two months there are some aspects of the software that make me shake my head.
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Old Oct 5, 2004, 5:23 PM   #18
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I agree, I have had my s7000 for 6 months and am disappointed with the compression of the 6 mp pics. I found that the RAW format gives me the best resolution, although I wish the software had other options beside TIFF to convert them to. I am going to get Photoshop CS that has the RAW plugin to convert, then I can save in any format I wish. I read that the 12 mp setting is just in-camera interpoation, isn't that the same as doubling the pixels? I am impressedwith its macro ability. I have takensome stunning closups.
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Old Oct 5, 2004, 8:59 PM   #19
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I think Fuji went with ISO 200 for a reason. If you compair apples to apples and look at all the other cameras in the same class at ISO 200 they are much noisier than the Fuji. How often in the real world do you use ISO 50 or even 100. I know when I had a Minolta 7HI and set it to auto, the lighting almost always made ISO higher and then I had more noise than the Fuji ever had. I'm happy with the ISO 200. My real complaint is as many others is the compression at lower size pictures. I almost always use 12MP fine because the other settings just don't get the quality of picture I prefer. I also don't understand why Fuji has no interest in the comments of their consumers and will not look at Flash updates. Maybe its some business practice in their country or they are hoping to force you into an upgrade when a new model comes out.

My rule of thumb is to buy a product I am satisfied with when I purchase it. Not to buy something with the hopes it will get fixed with a firmware update. After taking about 3500 pictures with the S7000 I am comfortable with all the camera settings and menue choices and I get mostly good images. Very few shots don't come out properly.
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Old Oct 15, 2004, 4:32 AM   #20
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Hey Alex, I've had my s7000 for few days and can't complain about the noise.... or I'm so photo-ignorant. Can post u some pic. I took- the dark places are simply dark, not noisy, even ISO 800 is not so bad. Give me your e-mail, mine is: [email protected]2.pl



Regards

Pawel
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