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Old Feb 14, 2003, 9:26 AM   #31
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Default From Fuji: don't use Compact Flash

I've read the messages here it seems that some cameras don't lome compact flash while some work fine. I have a 602 and have used nothing but smart media and it has worked extremely well. When I bought the camera there was no mention of compact flash, only smart media and beleive me I don't intend to get any compact flash cards!
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Old Feb 14, 2003, 10:34 AM   #32
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k1par .. well said and it's the safest assumption, but don't give up on that second slot - Microdrives work fast and fine! Price is coming down.
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Old Feb 14, 2003, 11:48 AM   #33
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NHL - what do you mean by review and edit in regards to reducing flash card life? Right now the only means I have of getting pictures off my card is via the USB cable direct from the camera. Once the picture are in the FinePix viewer, I copy them to the hard drive, disconnect the camera and erase all the frames. Are you talking about something else?
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Old Feb 14, 2003, 1:31 PM   #34
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what do you mean by review and edit in regards to reducing flash card life
With small flash cards people review and delete unwanted ones from the camera to free up room for other pictures... Because pictures are stored in blocks, when one picture is removed, the entire block need to be erased and rewrite even though just 1 picture was removed from a block! It depends how the flash translation layer handles the low-level driver: it can also copy an entire block with the deleted picture to another block, but regardless the entire old block need to be erased first before it can be re-used (even though only 1 picture in the block was removed...) Nand Flash is not a random access device!
What you did is quite correct, but formatting the card again is quicker than deleting the pictures and only affect a few blocks.

That's the other difference between flashes and microdrives. Microdrive is limited by mechanical wears but have unrestricted erase/write cycles (the head never touch the platter). Flash has no moving part, but there's only so many times you can charge/discharge a junction! Try to read the previous application notes regarding failure modes and counter measure which are very similar to harddisk... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Did everyone see how the data in the Nand flash is accessed?
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Programming and reading are performed on a sector or a page unit of 512 byte to emulate the popular sector size
Aren't we talking about 'harddisk' here?
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Old Feb 14, 2003, 2:05 PM   #35
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NHL, I think I see your point, deleting doesn't clean up 'slack space' whereas formatting (presumably filling with 0's or FF's) cleans the card to keep the FAT pointers in logical sequence for each new file.

However:

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Programming and reading are performed on a sector or a page unit of 512 byte to emulate the popular sector size
These cards can be formatted with cluster sizes 512 Bytes to 32K (viewed with WinHex). Does CF actually have a real FAT12/16 cluster size, or is this some sort of emulation and there is no slack space? The reason I'm asking, is I want to put a few thousand very short .wav files on a card.
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Old Feb 14, 2003, 4:00 PM   #36
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These cards can be formatted with cluster sizes 512 Bytes to 32K (viewed with WinHex). Does CF actually have a real FAT12/16 cluster size, or is this some sort of emulation and there is no slack space? The reason I'm asking, is I want to put a few thousand very short .wav files on a card.
I think they're refering to the actual hardware (ie physical) access to the flash device, ie the two 256 byte of data blocks along with their respective ECC parity (page 7). Whereas you are interested in the actual logical format of DOS. Remember this Physical Format and Logical Format PDF (section 2)? http://www.samsungelectronics.com/se...hite_paper.PDF

CF controllers again vary with their internal flash configuration, but to answer your question I believe its emulation. I did transfered quite a few large test bitstreams for both the AM and VM700 Tektronix onto CF before for transport.
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Old Feb 14, 2003, 5:41 PM   #37
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NHL ....thanks. PS I've never noticed a CF slot on our VM700, only ever used the analogue component inputs and analysis functions. Perhaps you had a rec.601 version option, input - but then ours only analysed and didn't generate waveforms?
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Old Feb 14, 2003, 6:16 PM   #38
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Sound like we're in the same field... we generate our own bitstream based on individual transponders. The CFs are used for transport between labs, field test and to the factories... the cheaper (and slower) way is to cut a CD. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Old Mar 7, 2003, 10:46 PM   #39
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Default CF and SM

Almost wish I had not come across this discussion! But, my experience so far has been good with CF in my s602z. Purchased the camera 2 months ago and I've been using 128MB CF PNYs and 256MB CF Lexar. I was having a problem with SM cards when deleting pix with my computer and I even returned 2 128MB SM cards for replacement (don't use the 16MB that Fuji packages with the camera as that size is about usless). Then I finally "stumbled" upon the format comand in the camera (it is pretty well hidden in the manual and trouble shooting suggested format but no directions to do so). As far as CF cards, so far no problems at all. This discussion is interesting and I'll pay a bit more attention to the data transfer rates of the next cards I purchase.
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Old Mar 8, 2003, 6:46 AM   #40
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I was having a problem with SM cards when deleting pix with my computer
Yes, you can end up fragmenting your SM card and changing it's format. It's not just the card speed at issue with CF. When you buy bigger cards, the default format (cluster size) changes. So whilst a 128/ 256Mb card might be OK in all but continuous movie, A bigger expensive card might not. There are things you can tweak, but the outcome isn't always certain. There are some new big fast Sandisk cards out now, but I would still be a bit nervous.

I have to say though, I do delete all from Explorer (not move) and I haven't had any probs with 128Mb Smartmedia. Deleting some files and leaving others is when the probs. start.

Buy a Dazzle reader and lurking on the CD are the re-format proggies for current media. Saves sending cards back when you screw them up. Often the cam won't reformat.
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