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Old Feb 12, 2006, 8:44 PM   #31
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rinniethehun wrote:
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Why are you so amazed and staggered? A large percentage of the world's population is technically challenged...they can't comprehend why you would ever want to doubleclick a mouse or why you would ever consider adjusting the aperture of a camera to change the depth of field...what's aperture?...what's depth of field? To spend hours reading a manual that talks about ISO, F-stops, exposure compensation, white balance, aperture, and synchro, and is full of abbreviations like DPOF, S-AF, and +1/3EV, would be like you reading a manual written in a foreign language. Little if anything would be gained - it would be a complete waste of time. Some people look at the manual only to find out where to insert the batteries and memory cards, and how to turn the camera on. Some people know absolutely nothing about photography, and don't want to learn - they just want to take great pictures.

The camera manufacturers have fueled this level of ignorance by providing cameras that are "fully automatic", "easy to use", "point and shoot"...in other words, you don't need any knowledge about photography to produce professional quality pictures. They add "scene" and "special effects" modes to compensate for lack of photographic knowledge. "Our camera has 57 special modes to help you take great pictures - night mode, sunrise and sunset mode, vacation mode, full moon mode, solar eclipse mode, shot through a window mode, reptiles and amphibians mode, pickles in a jar mode, etc." If it sells cameras, why not? Unfortunately, consumers now expect to open a box, take out the camera, insert batteries, turn it on, press the big button on top, drop the entire camera into a dock, push a button, and print a picture...and expect to get something that looks like it came out of National Geographic. If it doesn't, the camera must be defective. They see no difference between a $138 P&S and a $7,000 DSLR, other than size and complexity.

Some people can't tell the difference between a good picture and a bad picture. They think every picture they take is good. Some people are unhappy with their pictures, so they come here looking for help. We can either criticize them or try to help them. It can be frustrating, especially when many of these individuals have done absolutely nothing to help themselves, but then again, if everyone was an expert photographer, this forum wouldn't exist.

the Hun

If someone is technically challenged, then that is all the more reason to educate themselves about a product they are using. I agree that some people can't tell the difference between a good and bad picture, just as some can't tell the difference between singing on pitch or off key. I rarely criticize anyone for lack of knowledge, what I do criticize is not taking the time to follow advice given and then failing to educate themselves about the product. Following your theory on reading owner's manuals ("it would be a complete waste of time") and educating oneself about products and tools you use, I guess every photographer over the last 100 years has immersed themselves in usless information that provides no benefit or improvement in their technique. I suppose we have even wasted all of the time many spent getting an education in school, whether it be elementary, high school, college, or even on the job training. Yep, I see your point, we should all stay uneducated about anything because we don't understand it in the first place, won't that make for great leaps and strides in the lives of all of mankind! If I was amazed before, I am now simply dumbfounded!!

Clyde
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Old Feb 12, 2006, 11:10 PM   #32
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"If someone is technically challenged, then that is all the more reason to educate themselves about a product they are using. "

So, you really think that reading an owner's manual will make a person a great photographer if they've never owned a camera or taken a picture before? Do you think that reading the owner's manual of a car will make a person a great driver if they've never driven a car before? I guess you're so smart, you can't comprehend what technically challenged means.

"Following your theory on reading owner's manuals ("it would be a complete waste of time")..."

I guess that went right over your head. Let's regroup:

[To spend hours reading a manual that talks about ISO, F-stops, exposure compensation, white balance, aperture, and synchro, and is full of abbreviations like DPOF, S-AF, and +1/3EV, would be like you reading a manual written in a foreign language. ]

How's your Japanese, Clyde? Like to try reading an owner's manual written in Japanese? What do you mean, you don't understand it? What's the matter, don't you want to better yourself?

"I suppose we have even wasted all of the time many spent getting an education in school, whether it be elementary, high school, college, or even on the job training. Yep, I see your point, we should all stay uneducated about anything because we don't understand it in the first place, won't that make for great leaps and strides in the lives of all of mankind!"

So, like if I don't read my camera owner's manual, the human race is doomed?

"If I was amazed before, I am now simply dumbfounded!!"

I agree with the dumb part.

the Hun

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Old Feb 13, 2006, 12:55 AM   #33
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Hun,

I really don't think that Clyde is suggesting that reading the manual will makeanybody a good photographer, but rather that it will give him an understanding of the tool he has chosen to help him achieve that goal. The technical terms you refer to are fundamental and sooner or later any camera user is going to have to aquire an understanding of them if they are serious about pursuing the hobby. New users are going to be equally perplexed when they seereferences to DOF, ISO et al on this forum (I know I certainly was).Sooner or later they are going to have tohelp themselves and whether that is through reading or asking a question, the process is essentially the same.The manual in fact gives you a head startand alerts you to issues you need to familiarise yourself with. This forum for example has an excellent Glossary / Dictionary of terms which I consulted time & time again when I was going through my first camera's manual - at that time I knew absolutely nothing about photography, other than what I could remember from my science class in school (which wasn't very much I have to add:G).

The real problem, I think, is that society has become seduced by the"quick-fix"solution which not only encourages lazinessbut alsoa defeatist attitude in many, as soon as any kind of effort is required to achieve an end.

To coin a modern phrase; claims of technical incompetence and a lack of literary skills when one is confronted by the need to apply oneself, is nothing short of a "cop-out" and hintsof an inherentidleness.

I don't mean to be offensive in anyway, but I cannot believe that anybody would be so ignorant as to dismiss an Owners Manual out of turn.
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Old Feb 13, 2006, 4:52 AM   #34
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The only reason either (both) of you entered this thread was to flame the original poster. [I can't believe anyone could be so stupid.] You have yet to contribute anything positive or informative [other than how great you both think you are.] Oh, yeah, I'm a very successful, self-made man who read the owner's manual for every product I ever owned - I'm great and you stink!

"Sooner or later they are going to have tohelp themselves and whether that is through reading or asking a question..."

Just don't ask it in one of these forums, or you'll be attacked and ridiculed for being an ignorant piece of crap who is too lazy to read his owner's manual.

"The real problem, I think, is that society has become seduced by the"quick-fix"solution which not only encourages lazinessbut alsoa defeatist attitude in many, as soon as any kind of effort is required to achieve an end."

"To coin a modern phrase; claims of technical incompetence and a lack of literary skills when one is confronted by the need to apply oneself, is nothing short of a "cop-out" and hintsof an inherentidleness."

OK, OK, I read my owner's manual. But that really doesn't make me a better person than someone who didn't or couldn't.

"I don't mean to be offensive in anyway, but I cannot believe that anybody would be so ignorant as to dismiss an Owners Manual out of turn. "

I'm sure no one would consider anything you've said here to be offensive - I know I sure haven't.

the Hun

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Old Feb 13, 2006, 6:07 AM   #35
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Hun,

In the first instance your assertions are bothill conceived and ill considered, since I think you know very little about me.

In the second instance I see no real need to resort to "gutter-speak" in presenting your point.

In the third instance whether an enquiring mind seeks knowledge from either a book or from this forum, both activities involve the act of reading. It is ultimately the act of reading thatacquiresthe knowledge.

Since the Owners Manual is product specific, common sense should dictate that thisis the logical first stepinone's readingand gathering of information aboutthe product and subject at hand.

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OK, OK, I read my owner's manual. But that really doesn't make me a better person than someone who didn't or couldn't.
Making the effort to read the manual and digest its content, willcertainly make you a more informed person aboutthe subject on which you wish to converse. This in turn prepares you better to receive the information you seek.



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Old Feb 13, 2006, 6:52 AM   #36
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T R U C E Everybody!! Please! I am not upset by the views. I don't agree; but I am not upset. I'm too proud....

Everyone has presented their points of view; so let's move on. With that as a basis, do you guys have any ideas for the night shot problems I've posted in a more recent thread?
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Old Feb 13, 2006, 9:58 AM   #37
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Hun,

I don't recall Steve or myself saying we were "great" or better than anybody else. What I did say was that people need to educate themselves about the tool they are using regardless of what product area it is in. My reply to your response to my post was simply taking your conclusions to a logical progression based on your statements about reading the owner's manual being a waste of time. Nowhere did I slam, degrade, or talk down to Digman, I did present my observations from other forums on the lack of people reading owner's manuals. I certainly am no expert or pro photographer, when I bought my S7000 a couple of years ago I was totally in the dark. as I had always used very simple film and digital P/S cams, but having dealt with being uneducated with a lot of product areas over the years, I studied my owner's manual, followed postings and answers on many forums, and learned about how to better understand the S7000 and improve my skills/knowledge such as they are. I don't expect to ever receive any awards for my mostly average to poor pics, but every once in a while I get a couple that I think are pretty good (even a blind pig finds an acorn every now and then), but I enjoy using my camera and feel that I am getting better at using it. No different than when I started learning how to create/edit FM synthesizer voices and the owner's manuals appeared to be total gobbledegook when I first started reading them, but I followed the same process of educating myself about the synthesizer and the process involved and finally reached the point where I could work the process and obtain good results. Did it happen overnight? No, it did not, it took me about six years to really get a good understanding of the process, in spite of being a trained musician that used to play in rock and R&B bands. All of the prior training for many years involved pianos and organs that did not require editing the sounds and learning different types of synthesis, music synthesizers were a totally new area to me. And educating myself about them was the key to sucessfully using them. Am I better than anyone else that has not studied synthesis and relys instead on pre-programmed factory sounds? No, I'm not, but at least by educating myself I can tailor the sounds/instruments to better serve my particular wants/needs. Are someone else's wants/needs the same as mine? Probably not, but I feel that most people can benefit by learning how their "tools" operate to better address those needs. So you go your way, I'll go mine, and we can both follow whatever path we think is right for ourselves.

Clyde
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Old Feb 21, 2006, 8:16 PM   #38
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With night shots I used to always use a tripod. When I lived in Seattle I had a little Minolta 110 zoom camera (yes I used drop in cartridges) I took pictures of the space needled at night, while it was on a tripod, and then slowly zoomed as the shutter was held open. Really some intersting pictures. Tripods allow you to use slower film or ISO less than 1600 very effectively. Time is your friend with a tripod. Without it, it's your worst enemy at night.



Still remembe some of the fantastic pictures I took of the kids growing up and the things I used to do, like smearing a bit of vasoline around the edge of the lens filter or shooting though plastic bags.. odd stuff really.. but it had it's intersting effect because it was a 110 camera, but it was a SLR to boot, so I got to see what I was doing :-)



BTW I downloaded the pdf file of my Fuji S9000 before I even ordered it and had a good read though it before it arrived. I also like to use the pdf file to do a quick "search" function for some things I'm looking for. You might get a pdf from the mfg site and it is sooooo handy to search for what topic you want to do with the camera.

Cheers!

Vern


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