Steve'sDigicams

Hoooba · Jan 9, 2005, 1:58 AM

Hi Everyone,

I am wondering if what part of the workflow does noise reduction fall in? Here are my options

1. Reduce noise first

2. Reduce noise at the end BEFORE sharpening

3. Reduce noise at the end AFTER sharpening

I am using PS CS and the Neat Image Plugin. Thanks for all your help

Freefly · Jan 9, 2005, 3:46 AM

Reduce noise at the end BEFORE sharpening. If you did it before, it would undo your sharpening attempts a little. Although Neat image has sharpening built in, you could try that! If you reduced noise first, you may add more noise as you adjust levels etc. thereby needing to reduce noise a second time!

eric s · Jan 9, 2005, 6:52 AM

One problem with reducing noise later is that once you adjust the picture in any way you can't use the pre-trained noise profiles to remove the noise.

If there is a location to train it, then removing it later is just fine. If not, then you're out of luck.

Because of this, I always remove noise as the first thing. I do, on rare occasions have to do a second pass... but so infrequently as to not matter.

I have only recently started to use the sharpening built in to neat image. Some times it seems to save the detail that noise reduction removed. (but noise reduction doesn't always loose detail so it isn't always necessary.)

Eric

Mr_Saginaw · Jan 9, 2005, 11:27 AM

eric s wrote:

Quote:

...

If there is a location to train it, then removing it later is just fine. If not, then you're out of luck.

Eric

Eric,

By train i'm guessing you do the "Noise Analyzer" for each individual pic? I saved my noise profiles and then I usually just batch process them for anything over a few pics. Perhaps not perfect by I've happy with the results. I may have a hundred pics from a weekend of shooting...

and yes I do noise reduction last. I use Neat Image and set it to do noise reduction with bit of sharpening. Very happy with the results.

Hoooba · Jan 9, 2005, 11:59 AM

So can I just rely on the sharpening in Neat Image? Is it any different than USM?

eric s · Jan 9, 2005, 4:16 PM

(note, I use NeatImage. My comments might not apply to other noise removal programs.)
Mr_Saginaw

The results that I got would make me very surprised if you could batch process with saved noise profiles (especially on an edited image) and get good results. I know that I didn't. I am often able to remove 100% of the noise if I train on that image. I usually can't go over 50% removal if I use a pre-built profile.

Once I increased contrast overall, did local contrast adjustments by hand, maybe shifted exposure a touch, maybe altered hue/saturation.... after that the noise characteristics are so different that I found pre-built noise profiles just didn't do much of anything. I have to train (yes, using the Analyzer.)

Exactly how to do you it at the end with pre-built profiles? Do you script everything? If you changed each picture the same way, and then used pre-built profiles that were made with those same changes... ok, that would work. But I find that every image doesn't get the same treatment so this wouldn't work for me.

In the end, if you're happy with it than that is all that matters. I don't edited more than 10-20 images from a weekend... clearly my way wouldn't work with 100.

Hoooba,
I'm not sure if you can only rely on the sharpening that is in NeatImage. I certainly don't. But I do some times use it to recover some detail that was lost when I removed the noise (I prefer to loose no detail but some times I do.)

I think the statement is that you shouldn't "only depend" on the NeatImage sharpening. USM clearly is better on its flexability alone. You can vary the settings. You can use masks and selectively sharpen things that need it. I don't see why you'd want to do that with NeatImage (you could, but why not just do that with USM?)

Eric

Mr_Saginaw · Jan 9, 2005, 5:05 PM

I agreee with Eric in that I do the USM in PS and then do noise removal with a just touch of sharpening in Neat Image.

Eric, actually of the 100 picture from the weekend are all very similar and all get close to the same adjustment in PS. Think gymnastics meet...

So I build a profile based on one of the pics and then batch up the rest letting Neat Image auto-match the pic to the profile. I get pretty good results that way... like you said as long as we're happy with the results!

If I do just have a couple of images I will do each one individually...

j

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Jan 9, 2005, 1:58 AM	#1
Hoooba Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 197	Hi Everyone, I am wondering if what part of the workflow does noise reduction fall in? Here are my options 1. Reduce noise first 2. Reduce noise at the end BEFORE sharpening 3. Reduce noise at the end AFTER sharpening I am using PS CS and the Neat Image Plugin. Thanks for all your help

Jan 9, 2005, 3:46 AM	#2
Freefly Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 368	Reduce noise at the end BEFORE sharpening. If you did it before, it would undo your sharpening attempts a little. Although Neat image has sharpening built in, you could try that! If you reduced noise first, you may add more noise as you adjust levels etc. thereby needing to reduce noise a second time!

Jan 9, 2005, 6:52 AM	#3
eric s Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 5,803	One problem with reducing noise later is that once you adjust the picture in any way you can't use the pre-trained noise profiles to remove the noise. If there is a location to train it, then removing it later is just fine. If not, then you're out of luck. Because of this, I always remove noise as the first thing. I do, on rare occasions have to do a second pass... but so infrequently as to not matter. I have only recently started to use the sharpening built in to neat image. Some times it seems to save the detail that noise reduction removed. (but noise reduction doesn't always loose detail so it isn't always necessary.) Eric

Jan 9, 2005, 11:59 AM	#5
Hoooba Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 197	So can I just rely on the sharpening in Neat Image? Is it any different than USM?

Jan 9, 2005, 4:16 PM	#6
eric s Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 5,803	(note, I use NeatImage. My comments might not apply to other noise removal programs.) Mr_Saginaw The results that I got would make me very surprised if you could batch process with saved noise profiles (especially on an edited image) and get good results. I know that I didn't. I am often able to remove 100% of the noise if I train on that image. I usually can't go over 50% removal if I use a pre-built profile. Once I increased contrast overall, did local contrast adjustments by hand, maybe shifted exposure a touch, maybe altered hue/saturation.... after that the noise characteristics are so different that I found pre-built noise profiles just didn't do much of anything. I have to train (yes, using the Analyzer.) Exactly how to do you it at the end with pre-built profiles? Do you script everything? If you changed each picture the same way, and then used pre-built profiles that were made with those same changes... ok, that would work. But I find that every image doesn't get the same treatment so this wouldn't work for me. In the end, if you're happy with it than that is all that matters. I don't edited more than 10-20 images from a weekend... clearly my way wouldn't work with 100. Hoooba, I'm not sure if you can only rely on the sharpening that is in NeatImage. I certainly don't. But I do some times use it to recover some detail that was lost when I removed the noise (I prefer to loose no detail but some times I do.) I think the statement is that you shouldn't "only depend" on the NeatImage sharpening. USM clearly is better on its flexability alone. You can vary the settings. You can use masks and selectively sharpen things that need it. I don't see why you'd want to do that with NeatImage (you could, but why not just do that with USM?) Eric

Jan 9, 2005, 5:05 PM	#7
Mr_Saginaw Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 552	I agreee with Eric in that I do the USM in PS and then do noise removal with a just touch of sharpening in Neat Image. Eric, actually of the 100 picture from the weekend are all very similar and all get close to the same adjustment in PS. Think gymnastics meet... So I build a profile based on one of the pics and then batch up the rest letting Neat Image auto-match the pic to the profile. I get pretty good results that way... like you said as long as we're happy with the results! If I do just have a couple of images I will do each one individually... j