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Old Sep 11, 2006, 11:48 PM   #11
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One of the great milestones in slr photography was the advent of open-aperture metering. This allowed for composition and metering without HAVING to stop the lens down, making it dark. While there may be a rare occasion where you may wish to stop the lens down and then look through it, for me personally, I can live without it quite happily. Just my two cents...

cheers,

Robert
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Old Sep 12, 2006, 12:47 AM   #12
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Alright, complicated stuff.

On top of everything (which I certainly had a hard time absorbing), I am curious to know whether can I observe focus with a TTL viewfinder?

I will provide an example below which has been in my mind for quite some time>>>

When I fit a dSLR (Say a Nikon D50 or D70s) with a lens such as the NIKKOR F/1.8 85 MM prime glass which have a very shallow DOF wide open...I know that the out of focus areaswill be very bokeh like am I right? Now, what happens if I try to focus on a person anywhere appropriate enough fora backgroundbokeh to be created; what will happen, will everything be clear or will the person be in focus only with the background in soft focus? (On the TTL viewfinder)

This is my question. (Sorry if I didn't made myself clear in my previous post)

EDIT:

Assuming that I can indeed see background blur while focusingon a person in the appropriate distance with the 85 mm F/1.8 (or otherlarge aperturelenses) mounted; what happens if I select "continuous" focus and then track the guy as he moves, will I keep on seeing the bokeh and the person clearly in focus as I track him?
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
BTW, I want to clarify something;

Why you all say it is impossible to check focus with a live preview LCD?

I could in fact observe focus and bokeh on my N1 compact especially in macro mode where background blur and clearly focus objects are easily seen.

Also note that more advance prosumers like the R1 has even more obvious out of focus areas so that you can better judge it.

Read the following excerpt about the R1's focus>>>

Quote:

Manual focus
During manual focus (as you turn the MF ring) the center of the frame is magnified up to full size, the R1's large sensor and large maximum apertures make it easy to locate the focus point (because when not in focus the image is more blurred than it would be on a consumer digital camera). The magnified display is very detailed, much better than most live view manual focus implementations.





http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/page7.asp

I am not trying to defend the R1, I just found it (incidentally) convenient to use it as agood example of what I am talking about.

As an aside: If my DSC-N1 compact (supposedly) have a large APS-Cimage sensor and a F/1.4 prime (I only made it VERY obvious here), I can be very sure that I will be looking for what I want.Because now I could even observe bokehand live focusing processes with my N1. I bet if it has a large sensor and aperture, Iwill be able to frame a non-macro subject and evaluate both the subject and the bokeh on the LCD. (That is what I want)

Sometimes when I select continuous focus on my N1, I could see it focusing on moving subjects. Imagine ifit had a large sensor and aperture, won't I be able to notesomething more dramatic given the shallower DOF?Looking at the R1, it is just like a dSLR in terms of this areabut with a live preview thatseems good enough for me to observe focus and bokeh.

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Okay, Idid notmeant to sound like a super pro being able to evaluate bokeh and focus with myN1's tiny sensor and aperture. I was in fact interested inhaving everything like my N1 except with a large image sensor and aperture to seriouslyget bokeh andeasier focus due to the more obvious out of focus characteristics of large sensors/apertures. I was hoping that a dSLR could provide me with those, since I really want to observe the bokeh and focus first before capturing the shot. (It will be easier for me tolook at the framing [see how the settings take place] before capturing)

In the end, Iwon't mind a dSLR as long as it can show me background blur and focus on it's TTL viewfinderor else I might just find myself looking through a piece of glass...










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Old Sep 12, 2006, 3:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
I know that the out of focus areaswill be very bokeh like am I right?

You don't understand the meaning of the term "bokeh". It refers to how pleasing to the eye is the area of the photograph that is out of focus.

It does not refer to the degree to which the background is blurred.

It is possible to observe out-of-focus areas while looking through any kind of viewfinder, what it is not possible to do is tojudgethe appearance of the final print by what you are looking at through the viewfinder. The viewfinder is simply not that accurate.

Quote:
I really want to observe the bokeh and focus first before capturing the shot.
If you want to do that sort of thing you need a large-format camera and a magnifying loupe.




Quote:
Why you all say it is impossible to check focus with a live preview LCD?
That's not what anyone has said. It is often possible, though the worse the viewfinder the harder it is, to check focus through the viewfinder. You can often see that the plane of focus is close to correct.

Some of the more expensive cameras have interchangeable focus screens to make this easier - for example the Canon 5D and 1D series. (They are not provided with the camera, but can be purchased.)

These screens were common before cameras had AF. Nowadays however most people cannot focus as accurately by eye as the autofocus algorithms can, certainly they cannot do it as quickly and accurately.

So of course the easiest way to judge focus for most SLR users is now to check when the AF markers light up.

What you cannot do is accurately judge how much DOF you will have in a final print, with experience you can get a pretty good idea of how much DOF a particular lens will give at a given aperture and focus distance.

Follow this link and do some reading, use the online calculator to play with various values.

http://www.dofmaster.com
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Old Sep 12, 2006, 5:53 AM   #14
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As I said before, (and what peripatetic has said) you're mixed up about the meaning of bokeh. Bokeh is not something tangible that you can "get" or achieve. It is a subjective, non measurable term that refers to how pleasing the out of focus background is. Since it is subjective, and because the viewfinder (or even LCD for that matter) is small, there is no way to evaluate bokeh prior to the shot. Larger aperatures typically provide the most pleasing bokeh, but your bokeh will be roughly the same for a particular lens at given aperatures. That means bokeh for you're 85 mm lens will have roughly the same characteristics for each aperature (with the results at each aperature being slightly different). With experience using the lens, you'll have a pretty good idea of what bokeh will be like at say f 1.8 before taking the shot. And ultimately bokeh is what it is for any given lens at any given aperature. It is not changeable, or tweakable. That being said, you can really only "evaluate" bokeh once.
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Old Sep 12, 2006, 8:31 AM   #15
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Yeah, I actually got mixed up with bokeh and background blur.

[SORRY] What I want is NOT evaluating bokeh on the TTL viewfinder actually...I am curious whether can I observe background blur on the TTL viewfinder. (It was my bad)

I assume that the answerwill be a yes considering that the lens willalways be wide open as youhave allsaid?

So I can focus on a subject and observe the background blur around the subject? With continuous focus selected, I should be able to track the subject and still see the background blur?

I appreciate all your advice.
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Old Sep 12, 2006, 8:47 AM   #16
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BenjaminXYZ wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, I actually got mixed up with bokeh and background blur.

[SORRY] What I want is NOT evaluating bokeh on the TTL viewfinder actually...I am curious whether can I observe background blur on the TTL viewfinder. (It was my bad)

I assume that the answerwill be a yes considering that the lens willalways be wide open as youhave allsaid?

So I can focus on a subject and observe the background blur around the subject? With continuous focus selected, I should be able to track the subject and still see the background blur?

I appreciate all your advice.
Not really. You may be able to see a bit of what you're looking for, but not enough to really judge how it will appear in the final print. The viewfinder is too small and dark to be able to see what you're looking for clearly.
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Old Sep 12, 2006, 9:27 AM   #17
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I forgot to ask you what you meant by;

Quote:
you can really only "evaluate" bokeh once.
Quote:
Not really. You may be able to see a bit of what you're looking for, but not enough to really judge how it will appear in the final print. The viewfinder is too small and dark to be able to see what you're looking for clearly.

So it seems like a live preview LCD is better than, considering I can clearly see the "out of focus" areas using macro mode on my N1 compact. It is not dark or small at all. (Icould just see it allvery clearly and the final picture also turns out as it is on the LCD -A leaf against a blurred out background.)

Here is an example picture I had posted before>>> (It looks justlike that on my N1's LCD even while framing it.)













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Old Sep 12, 2006, 1:21 PM   #18
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As I said, bokeh is dependent on the lens, not the camera. Bokeh is not subject to change, or fluctuation, as how the lens is constructed,and the quality of the optics and lens coatings is what determines bokeh (as well as how we percieve it....again it is mostly subjective). So at any given aperature, regardless of all other settings, bokeh will be failry consistent...it is what it is. Sure, the type of scene and the background your shooting has something to do with it (an ugly background is an ugly background..great bokeh will not change it), but bokeh will be consistent from shot to shot at the same aperature for a particular lens. Since its consistent, regardless of how many times you look at it, your results will roughly be the same.

In terms of whether a live preview lcd is better, since you can clearly see your background maybe for you it is. With the amount of shooting I do, I don't need to see how out of focus the background is....I know how the lens will perform at a given aperature. I'm more concerned with focus, which in my opinionis much easier to see through an optical viewfinder. As long as I use a large aperature, I know how out of focus the background will be. This comes from practice, and I think you'll find over time, getting the focus right is more important than worrying about the background, especially since there a many ways that you can blur a background easily in post work...there is no way to fix focus.
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Old Sep 13, 2006, 4:33 AM   #19
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Alright, I am disappointed.

Maybe the TTL viewfinder is better for speed and clarity only.

Perhaps a dSLR is not for me after all; I prefer something clear, bright, sharp, accurate, and crisp for me to frame my images.

When I took a lookthrough the live preview LCD on the R1, it is much sharper looking thanit's 235,000 pixels EVF with only 134,000 pixels on a 2.0" surface area. I am guessing that the EVF magnified the 235,000 pixels too much to make it so "pixelize looking".

Anyway my point is;

The live preview LCD of the R1 is sharp, vibrant, crisp, bright, clear, and nice. In fact, I think it looks higher in quality than my N1's 230,000 pixel 3.0" touch screen (clear photo LCD plus). The R1's live preview LCD doesn't seems tolook like a small & darkdSLR TTL viewfinder as you've described it.

The only issue with the LCD (asonall the others as well) is; "There's refresh rate"

If only the TTL viewfinderof a dSLR can allow me to evaluate background blur and tosome extend "bokeh"as on a high quality live previewLCD, I won't have any problems with it.

I am not demanding perfect bokeh and focus evaluations on any preview method ofcouse, I just wantedsomething "good quality" that can provide me with some idea of howthe images will eventually look like. (Just asthe live preview LCDon my N1 can provide me)

I thought I expected more on a dSLR's TTL viewfinder...expecially with a much bigger image sensor and aperture. Funny, so that means that the Sony R1 with it's clear live preview LCDwill be the best choice for me (For what I have been looking for since the start).

Noticed how obvious theout of focusareas could look on the R1's LCD: It seems wasted that a dSLR's TTL viewfindercannot show such an effect (Unless I am mistaken).



EDIT:

Perhapes I did mistaken>>>



I could observe some background blur on this OLYMPUS E-500's TTL viewfinder^

I am still trying to findmore examples if I could.



Found another...I may have to take back all my words...:shock:

And another;



It seems that I can have what I want on a dSLRTTL viewfinder then??? This is clearly what I am looking for.



I think I have already found what I have been looking for. (To observe background blur on a TTL viewfinder). I always like to frame my subject before I capture it, if it looks nice on the viewfinder; then I capture it. (Yes, that also applies to my other aspects of photography as well)

I know I can't have everything with a TTL viewfinder, but a TTL VF does offer me some superiority in the image quality and speed department. When I look through the D70s' TTL VF, I know; I can see the scene very clearly unlike an EVF and there is also no lag at all since everything is at the speed of light without any pixels.

Earlier I did mistakenthe fact that one cannot see background blur in a TTL viewfinder, if I recalled, some in here did say I could see the effect, but duetoexperienced user telling me it isnot easy to observe it has lead me into thinking that live previews are better.In fact, they are looking very similer to me now with the above examples at hand. Thoseare exackly what I wanted.


Earlier some of the commentswere making me think that TTLviewfinders are just like a neutral piece of glass that can't show you any dept of field, bokeh, or background blurat all. I mean, all I need is justbeing able to observe the background blur (To some extend: focus) like what you canmake outin those examples above^

lol, what kept you'll thinkingthat I wanted ultra precision& 100% accurate representation of focus, bokeh, and background blur on TTL viewfinders?? :-)

















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Old Sep 13, 2006, 8:56 AM   #20
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Remember, you are seeing greatly enlarged images of these viewfinders. Yes, you will be able to get an idea of what the background will look like, but your actual view through the viewfinder will be much smaller and you will be less able to make out details. Also, unless your shooting wide open, when the lens stops down to the actual aperature when you press the shutter, the amount of background blur will change, as when composing the shot the camera is wide open. I still contend that you should be more worried about getting accurate focus, rather than the background blur. Once, you understand how your lens renders the background at a given aperature, you won't need to see the amount of background blur, because you'll know what the effect is going to be.
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