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Old Jan 25, 2008, 9:28 AM   #11
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But your example illustrates where theory and reality dont meet - you ran out of space. So there WAS a downside.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If I'd been shooting JPG I would be in exactly the same end position, just with extra unused space on my CF card!

:blah:

Also I never said you can't get good large prints from JPG, just that the print you get from a JPG is never better and sometimes worse.

Likewise with PP. Often the JPG is fine as a starting point, but sometimes you lose out. And starting from RAW you're never worse off.
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Old Jan 25, 2008, 9:44 AM   #12
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peripatetic makes some good points: there is an increased dynamic range with RAW though you have to work a bit to get it. Raw does alow a bit more exposure latitude, though possibly at the expense of loosing the increased dynamic range. To get any of the very real advantages he outlines, you will have to spend more post processing time. That is not bad for a couple of images, but no one is likely do that level of post processing to the 600 or more images from a wedding or other major event. That is why wedding and event photographers most often shoot JPEG only.

I strongly agree with him when he says lack of memory should never force you to change your shooting style. Memory is cheap enough (compared to cameras and good glass) that you should simply get more if that is an issue.
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Old Jan 25, 2008, 9:52 AM   #13
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peripatetic wrote:
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Likewise with PP. Often the JPG is fine as a starting point, but sometimes you lose out. And starting from RAW you're never worse off.

Unless, like peripatetic, you run out of space and have to delete images.

And of course if you don't want unnecessary PP time doing raw conversions that may be unnecessary.

Like it or not there is a cost. You're willing to absorb that cost. Thats great.

Again, this is just like the idiotic claim that "why wouldn't you buy a camera that has in-body IS, there's no down side". Well, yes there is - you give up the benefits the other system has.

In this case, you give up the benefits JPEG provides - less space and less workflow.

And you give that up for very marginal gain if you do your job right when taking the photo to begin with in many instances. Now, again, there are instances where you won't have time to get everything right - exposures and WB are changing too fast. Then RAW is the right tool for the job.

But again, your notion that JPEG is "fine for beginners" is laughable. I made about $6000 last year off jpeg print sales. Not bad for a beginner, hunh? Remember, I'm not saying 'dont use raw' so please dont twist my words here. What Im saying is - raw isn't the requirenment you indicate it is.

Remember, one of your idols here - NHL shoots mostly jpeg too. Or is he just a begginner too because he hasn't "seen the light" and shoot RAW 100%?



EDIT - Peri's exact quote was "JPEG is fine as a starting point" not "JPEG is fine for begginers". Dont want to twist his words. I made an interpretation that the statmment IMPLIED JPEG is a beginning step. Once you're ready for more advanced work then learn RAW.

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Old Jan 25, 2008, 3:26 PM   #14
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Thanks to all of you. My intention is not conflict about it , just opinion and arguments if there are. You sent lot of very good answers,for me. I hope I got right answer.

Thanks again.
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Old Jan 25, 2008, 3:51 PM   #15
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emes wrote:
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Hi
Thanks to all of you. My intention is not conflict about it , just opinion and arguments if there are. You sent lot of very good answers,for me. I hope I got right answer.

Thanks again.
RAW vs. JPEG is about the same thing as Canon vs. Nikon....they are both subjects everyone has an opinion about, but no one has an answer that fits everyones needs. You need to decide which answer is right foryou.
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Old Jan 25, 2008, 6:25 PM   #16
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Don't worry, we're not fighting, just shooting the breeze.



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Dont want to twist his words. I made an interpretation that the statmment IMPLIED JPEG is a beginning step. Once you're ready for more advanced work then learn RAW.
I absolutely didn't mean that JPG was for beginners. I was talking about as a starting point for post-processing as opposed to starting with a RAW file.

A lot depends on your workflow I guess.

If you are using Lightroom or Aperture (and if you aren't then why not??) then the workflow steps are identical whether you shoot RAW or JPG. Things are a little slower with RAW it's true.

Anyway, I think we've all made our points.
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Old Jan 25, 2008, 8:40 PM   #17
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peripatetic wrote:
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Don't worry, we're not fighting, just shooting the breeze. ...
What, you don't see the blood on the floor?

emes said:
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I hope I got right answer.
The only right answer is that there is no single right answer. Take what you read/hear as a starting point and try things out for yourself. In the context of this thread, figure out how to deal with RAW output from your camera. After you work with it for a while, you will come to learn when/if you want to use it.
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Old Jan 25, 2008, 9:33 PM   #18
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First of all I agree that you should always get the best image possible in camera. I hate it when people say "I can fix that later in Photoshop" . But that is no reason to overlook the power of post processing. Every image I take at least gets looked at for the possibility of improvement. I have only used RAW for a short time, but you can definitely do more with it. As for large number of image's under the same conditions. You can batch process the files once you have made any correction. This still adds to the work flow but not as much.

On the other side I hate it when people say things like "memory is cheap" . Cheap is relevant. Right now I could not go buy another memory card. Not unless my son is willing to eat noodles for the rest of the week. There is also the cost of storage space, and computer power. My current computer can just barely handle a raw file from my 6 mega pixel camera. If I upgraded to a higher res. camera I would need a new computer to shoot RAW.

This is o right or wrong here each photographer has to figure out what is best for them.
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Old Jan 26, 2008, 1:16 AM   #19
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JohnG wrote:
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peripatetic wrote:
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Likewise with PP. Often the JPG is fine as a starting point, but sometimes you lose out. And starting from RAW you're never worse off.

Unless, like peripatetic, you run out of space and have to delete images.
Quick question about this. Who among us has sufficient precognition to know whether the next picture we take can wok OK with jpeg, or if we are going to want the flexibility of RAW for it? If I had that ability, maybe I could also know whether to even click the shutter or not.

I will agree that RAW is not for every shot or for every photographer. When shooting multiple shots of fireworks, for example, I use jpeg, and take a lot of pictures. Since I wouldn't want to spend time PP on each one, I just use the <del> key a lot more, and use what are left. This also works for shooting runners crossing the finish line at a marathon, and other events. Sporting events require lots of pictures, and post processing would eat up a lot of time which could be used for other things. When I shoot landscapes and wildlife, I use RAW. For landscapes, the latitude in dynamic range is useful. For wildlife, some shots need more help than I can give them in jpeg format.

RAW format is a tool, as is jpeg. Learning to use our tools appropriately is part of learning out craft.

brian
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Old Jan 26, 2008, 4:45 AM   #20
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Unless, like peripatetic, you run out of space and have to delete images.
I have never seen anyone cling so tightly to the wrong end of the stick.

The point of the anecdote was not that I missed any shots. I didn't miss any. I had to pause for a couple of minutes to delete some images I didn't like, then I decided to switch to JPG for the remainder of the hike. We were out the whole day - I wasn't shooting sports where deleting images meant I lost shots I could otherwise have been taking.

What I got was a shot I love, but I only got it in JPG and I wish it had been RAW.

I don't know ahead of time what is going to be the best shot of the day, I try to take a good one with every shot.

That day I had maybe 10 keepers. 9 RAW and one (the best one) only in JPG. My print of that shot is not as good as it would have been if I had captured RAW.

Here is the sad little JPG. :blah: Which with some PP makes a pretty good A3 print, but it could have been better.




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Who among us has sufficient precognition to know whether the next picture we take can wok OK with jpeg, or if we are going to want the flexibility of RAW for it? If I had that ability, maybe I could also know whether to even click the shutter or not.
Which eloquently sums up what I so miserably failed to convey.


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