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Old Aug 13, 2008, 1:08 PM   #31
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Personally, I tend to shoot at ISO 1600 indoors relatively often, even when using a flash. Without a flash, it's not uncommon for me to go higher. For example, I was using ISO 3200 at one recent wedding (just as a guest, not as the official photographer), just to get my shutter speeds up to around 1/30 second shooting at f/2.8. It was an indoor wedding and the lighting left a lot to be desired (an understatement), with no flash allowed during the ceremony. I wouldn't have used a flash anyway, even if it would have been allowed (as I wouldn't want to interfere with the official photographer).

When I do use a flash, I can let more ambient light into an image if I set ISO speeds higher, with the flash contributing less than it would normally need to at lower ISO speeds. That way, I don't end up with photos that have brighter subjects (obviously taken with a flash) and darker backgrounds.

Sure, bouncing can help --- but only to a point if it's a large venue (especially with very high, dark ceilings). Sometimes you may want to do the opposite and let the flash contribute more, so that the darker background isolates your subject. It's a judgement call, depending on the subject and conditions. It's very subjective.

As for noise, grain and sharpness, I wouldn't judge an image by how it looks on screen at 100% viewing size. That can be very misleading for print quality. That goes for film and digital. I've got some ISO 1600 images taken with film at a wedding a while back that look terrible on screen (very grainy, much more so than I'd get using ISO 1600 with my latest dSLR). But, they print fine at up to 8x10". I don't think most people (other than people into photography that frequent forums like this) notice the tiny technical details much anyway (noise/grain, etc.), unless the photos are really bad. I think they're paying attention to the moments captured instead.

IMO, good photography (especially wedding photography) is more art than science, and I'd be more concerned about image content, and if the photographer captured the moments well (especially the emotions of the participants), telling the story of the wedding (versus what camera, flash or ISO speeds were being used).

I'm sure many members here would disagree with me (as I see some already have, based on posts so far in this thread). ;-)

Bill... without seeing the images, it's tough to say if you got what you paid for. But, it's probably a good idea to make sure you select a photographer that shoots photos the way you want to see them taken for this type of event, as different photographers are going to have different styles of shooting. IOW, don't assume that the photographer is going to do things the same way you would. Investigate them and look at their work, discussing how you want things done if you see a need to after reviewing their portfolios.

If you're unhappy (and it sounds like you are), I'd personally chalk it up as "lesson learned" versus trying to get any kind of retribution. But, that's just me (and everyone is welcome to disagree with me, as that's only my personal opinion).


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Old Aug 13, 2008, 1:39 PM   #32
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I completely agree with JohnG: our opinions on possible photos posted are irrelevant- it is the customer that needs to be satisfied, and since in this case he isn't, the only way of solving this issue is by looking at the specific language of the contract. If there is nothing in there about standards or how to handle contract disputes, the only solution for the OP would be to go to a small claims court and see what the judge says.

Similarly, past performance is irrelevant.

Now, as far as the cameras and equipment used are concerned, I think that what cameras were used do not matter as much as the fact that the photographers did not even have an external flash there. As people more experienced than I have said here, sometimes it is indeed better to shoot at high ISO without flash, and sometimes a flash is not needed, or not a possibility. But in this case, the problem was that it was not even there at all: I can't imagine a situation where the pop up flash would be consistenly better than an external one, so the photographers were limiting themselves from the start.

In any case, I have to go with JohnG here: it is all about the specific customer and the language in the contract, especially since we can hardly provide more input, as we have no access to the photos in question and the photographer has defended his choices by simply stating they are his favorites.

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Old Aug 13, 2008, 2:49 PM   #33
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i wouldnt have booked the photographer off the back of the website, which to be honest is pretty poor with mediocre photos, a website is supposed to be a showcase of the best the someone can do and i would have looked elsewhere.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"lets just hope that people do a bit more research ...just my humble opinion, not taking sides just saying it as i see it

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style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"Gary
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Old Aug 13, 2008, 3:42 PM   #34
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Thank you....my client hired us for our artistry...creativity... He was very impressed with our work and website. One of my favorite shots of the day was the one of him with his daughter the bride. We had them look at each other and smile. The shot looks natural and side angle by passed glare on his glasses which we found out early on that he didn't like the suggestion of taking his glasses off. Photography is just another form of art...there are alot of people who hate abstract and some rave over it. A camera is just like a car...the owner knows every detail of the car and is comfortable with the way it drives...same goes for a photographer and his camera. Shooting at 1600 iso on one camera may take totally different pictures on another camera set at 1600 1so. I would also like to say I sent him an 8x10 picture of this shot and 5x7 since this was his complaint that we did not provide him with one picture on cd that could be printed as 5x7 or 8x10. I looked at pictures with magnifing glass and there was not one ounce of noise. I would have died for a picture like that of me with my father on my wedding day. thanks for comments.




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Old Aug 13, 2008, 4:55 PM   #35
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Well, as I said, my 2 cents for the original poster remains that he should pursue whatever remedies are specified in the contract, and, if there aren't any, and if the pictures are indeed visibly substandard, go to a small claims court. Alternatively, if the business is registered, you can file a claim with the Better Business Bureau. the BBB will then mediate the issue, and if the outcome is not satisfactory it becomes a part of their public database.

But for you, photowed, I also have a couple of suggestions. Regardless of whether or not the OP is a good customer, it is your reputation at stake, not his. Getting personal is entirely counterproductive in this situation, and you have a lot more to lose than him. And whatever he may have said to you in person, at least here he included absolutely no personal information or comments. Saying what a terrible customer he is, or whatever quirks he has (not wanting to remove his glasses, for example), just reflects poorly on your professionalism (especially citing glare off the glasses as a problem in a situation in which you were using an entry level dslr without external flash). The original poster's reputation as a client is irrelevant, as no one asks a client for references. It would be much more productive to talk to the customer directly. If he is witholding payment, there should be language in the contract as to how to resolve this.

And as a final piece of advice, you are right in that shots at 1600 iso in one camera look different from another, but condescension about photography basics in a photography forum generally rubs people the wrong way. I am sure that our moderators and more experienced posters know exactly how picture from a canon xt look like at iso1600.
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Old Aug 13, 2008, 5:24 PM   #36
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Thanks for comments....the reason I pointed out the glasses is because I have this in my contract..."it takes effort on clients part as well as ours"

to get best possible shots. Without cooperation on clients side it goes againsn't everything they hiredyou for. If he wanted super enlargements which was never mentioned I would have adviced him to look for a photographer with medium formatt camera . There are awesome cameras out there... there are awesome photographers out there with fees offive to ten thousand dollars . Out of all the weddings I've done never has a camera been an issue. thanks


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Old Aug 13, 2008, 5:38 PM   #37
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OK, I think we've got to the point where this conversation needs to be taken offline as I can just see this going around in circles and not helping anyone.

I hope that both parties find a happy resolution (pardon the pun) to this issue. I've not closed it (yet) so useful updates can be given but please consider what you are posting.

Thanks
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Old Aug 13, 2008, 5:44 PM   #38
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Thank you for allowing me to post here....I will no longer post any comments on this topic...I just needed to make my statements....thank you for everything....this is a very neat forum and I would like from time to time post on here if allowed...thanks to everyone !
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Old Aug 13, 2008, 5:47 PM   #39
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photowed wrote:
Quote:
Thank you for allowing me to post here....I will no longer post any comments on this topic...I just needed to make my statements....thank you for everything....this is a very neat forum and I would like from time to time post on here if allowed...thanks to everyone !
You are more than welcome and sorry that your first experience of Steve's has been due these circumstances.
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Old Aug 13, 2008, 6:07 PM   #40
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Thanks again..
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