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View Poll Results: which mirrorless format would you prefer?
FF 2 22.22%
APS-C 4 44.44%
4/3rds 1 11.11%
1/1.6" 2 22.22%
1/2.5" 0 0%
1/3" & smaller 0 0%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Mar 25, 2009, 3:18 PM   #41
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"however the What Camera Should I Buy area is intended for users to post up Questions to be answered by our knowledgeable community members, like yourself."

I think that if you look back through my posts & others, you'll find plenty of questions intended for knowledgeable community members.

If you want "what camera should I buy?" type questions *literally* that's a different story.

The paradox is that this is exactly the kind of discussion that people need to have when considering the purchase of a camera, yet it is perceived as too technical and abstract for them. Which is of course why they need help buying gear in the first place. Then after they buy a camera or 2, or 3 or 5 or 10, and they're still not happy, then they think about braving the waters of discussions like this. They need to do that *first*, so that they a) buy gear that can do most if not all of what they want, and b) so that their expectations of what their gear can do are realistic.

If they want to be told what gear to buy, sites like dpreview or IR will be happy to tell them. Paradoxically that is why one can't have an intelligent technical discussion about cameras on their sites. Posters there demand that their opinions be respected (and that they are respected) regardless of whether their opinions make any sense, either logically or technically. Try to be honest with them and they want to ban you, and thus preserve & perpetuate their ignorance and illogic. That's the dilemma of this entire issue. How to discuss technical issues with people who refuse to use their brains in a way that doesn't allow them to get exploited by people who are happy to do that. It certainly is not by mollycoddling people who are, let us say, irrational & let us say, less than willing to think. If the issue is to keep such members on the site so that they can be exploited on an ongoing basis by advertisers and marketers, IR and DP do that very well. Challenge the site & its user-base intellectually and the hue and cry will soon begin, the pitchforks raised, the torches lit. Ignorance and stupidity love company.
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Old Mar 25, 2009, 3:23 PM   #42
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..in short you raise an interesting question, how exactly does one have an intelligent, knowledgeable discussion with an ignorant, irrational person?

Is it even possible?

I suggest that you might want to just leave this alone as an *alternative* to the status-quo type of threads in this forum. Just to see what happens. Unless you think that it will hurt something, or you have a compulsive need to "organize" in an abstract manner.

But clearly this discussion so far has touched on most -indeed, just about all- of the issues relevant to camera-buyers across the spectrum from cameraphones to medium-format, from newbie amateurs to experienced professionals. TECHNICALLY I don't see a problem here.
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Old Mar 25, 2009, 3:57 PM   #43
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************ wrote:
Quote:
..in short you raise an interesting question, how exactly does one have an intelligent, knowledgeable discussion with an ignorant, irrational person?

Is it even possible?

I suggest that you might want to just leave this alone as an *alternative* to the status-quo type of threads in this forum. Just to see what happens. Unless you think that it will hurt something, or you have a compulsive need to "organize" in an abstract manner.

But clearly this discussion so far has touched on most -indeed, just about all- of the issues relevant to camera-buyers across the spectrum from cameraphones to medium-format, from newbie amateurs to experienced professionals. TECHNICALLY I don't see a problem here.
While somewhat entertaining I'll add my voice as a USER (not a moderator) that this thread isn't going to help many people make a decision about what camera to buy. This thread amounts to one person arguing with and insulting other participants - and in quite a long winded fashion. I might suggest, ************, that you put together a white paper about your beliefs and post in on a blog site - you can direct people to it and they can read your beliefs if they wish.

I have no issue with you posting here I just think you overestimate the usefulness of the discussion that has taken place in this thread. Purely my opinion as an experiencedphotographer.

Attacks on other members and moderators and suggesting to them how they should run their site undermines your credibility. By posting a white paper on your own blog you don't have to worry about that.

I don't know you and don't know your history on other forums, so my suggestion is based solely upon reading your posts here at Steves.

Good luck to you.

John
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Old Mar 25, 2009, 4:44 PM   #44
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************ wrote:
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... ignorant, irrational person?
I just noticed this thread, and I also read through the previous thread you started (complete with name calling that you directed towards other members). For example, this comment was clearly over the line:

Quote:
I'm going to close my mouth now before I say something like "you're an idiot, please stop wasting my time". oops there I went and said it.
Let me make this perfectly clear. Do not get personal and do not resort to name calling. We're not going to tolerate that type of behavior here.

Members can have any opinion they'd like, even if you don't agree with it. If you think they're wrong, present your side of the argument. Stick to debating the issue without attacking others personally.

We want to encourage the exchange of ideas and opinions on issues here. But, when comments are designed to be inflammatory and personal, we're going to draw the line.

Remain civil if you want to post here.

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Old Mar 25, 2009, 8:36 PM   #45
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************ wrote:
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..in short you raise an interesting question, how exactly does one have an intelligent, knowledgeable discussion with an ignorant, irrational person?

Is it even possible?
I'm guessing "no". You've cycled through just about every moderator on this forum, and I doubt you've learned a thing.

Folks, I'm the original "idiot" from the first thread. This thread started by blaming me for his first thread being locked. A degree in Physics with a 3.76 GPA, running the observarory with hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment, and becomming familiar with "digital" in the form of high level, cooled CCD cameras attached to those telescopes is not enough for me to raise above the "idiot" level.

I posted on the original thread because I felt that bad advise was being given to novice photographers. I posted pics from the smallest DSLR sensor to show what it could do, and indicate an individual's use had more to do with the proper selection of a camera than his reasoning. Touristguy went off the deep end. In the end I pulled my posts because I really didn't want to be associated with that vulgar thread.

The moderators want him to post in a more civil way. I'm not so generous. I want him gone. This forum is much more friendly than many other photography forums. The behavior on these two threads the worst I've seen on this place. I want the respectful forum back.

Greg
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Old Mar 25, 2009, 9:03 PM   #46
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Relax greg...he'll be gone soon enough - that's his M.O. Kinda like...

Benjamin on steroids...

the Hun

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Old Mar 25, 2009, 9:28 PM   #47
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rinniethehun wrote:
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Relax greg...he'll be gone soon enough - that's his M.O. Kinda like...

I got it like.....

You want the TRUTH???

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!

That's why their going to ban me.... CAUSE THEY CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH:lol:

Greg

P.S. I'll try to chill. I know your right.


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Old Mar 25, 2009, 10:44 PM   #48
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"The moderators want him to post in a more civil way. I'm not so generous. I want him gone."

...and what are you willing to give up in exchange?
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Old Mar 25, 2009, 10:53 PM   #49
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"While somewhat entertaining I'll add my voice as a USER (not a moderator) that this thread isn't going to help many people make a decision about what camera to buy."

I think that it will, incredibly well.

Beyond that I'm willing to let each forum-user decide, on their own, how helpful it is and to note their opinion on that issue, just like you have.

Of course, the thread has to actually continue exist and be readable, for that information to appear.

Also it is not just a matter of how many people it helps to decide what camera to buy *today*, but how well it helps people make decisions about what gear to buy from here on out. Or at least, it should be.
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Old Mar 25, 2009, 11:04 PM   #50
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"Let me make this perfectly clear. Do not get personal and do not resort to name calling. We're not going to tolerate that type of behavior here.

Members can have any opinion they'd like, even if you don't agree with it. If you think they're wrong, present your side of the argument. Stick to debating the issue without attacking others personally.

We want to encourage the exchange of ideas and opinions on issues here. But, when comments are designed to be inflammatory and personal, we're going to draw the line.

Remain civil if you want to post here."

But exactly how is this decided?
Ultimately that all comes down to "someone's opinion".

So it's not possible for members to have any opinion they like AND express their opinions on the forum. You are clearly putting "civility" (is that a word?) before honesty. For a start. This is a recipe for a "lowest common-denominator" discussion, not the honest exchange of ideas and opinions. First, hackles will be raised about words, then "insinuations", then "possible interpretations". But the end-result will be the same. Posters will come & remain here not because of the free flow of valuable information, but because here they feel safe from anything that resembles abuse in any way, and "feeling safe" will become the main focus of the forum, with everything else suffering like stepchildren.

It'll become the photographic equivalent of a high-school *********-ed class where the teacher is forbidden to talk about anything related to ********* by the school-board, because the students are all minors. See? You can't even mention the word here. You can't have the free exchange of information in a forum with such odious & abstract "style" restrictions. All you end-up doing is reinforcing ignorance and illogic. It's like giving every kid in the class a "B" just for showing up.
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