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Old Sep 27, 2009, 10:27 AM   #131
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Im afraid Ive let this get out of hand and said some pretty stupid things. Things I feel strongly because my privacy is paramount to me and I dont want to give it up lightly. Forget the law or whether there is a tort concerning anything about photos, the taking of them or the publishing of them. I simply asked Posting Street Photography -- Good or Bad. Its not worded well at all because, even Im in favor of street photography. Who wouldnt be? But there should be some limits on publication set by the photographer before there are laws to set them for us. It is expressly the kinds of photos posted by chato that I am strongly against. Pointing your camera at an individual with the purpose of using that individuals image for some sort of self gratifying end. I suppose the way I should have worded this thread as "While browsing the Internet would you be opposed to seeing your image posted without your permission?"
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Old Sep 27, 2009, 11:16 AM   #132
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I regard myself as an artist. Despite the passage of time, I am still not able to support myself with my art. Many good photographers do not support themselves by being in this field. Perhaps I'm not good enough to gain recognistion? Whether recognised or not, such is the way I see myself.

Bynx has said:

"While browsing the Internet would you be opposed to seeing your image posted without your permission?"

Well, I would like to ask him how he feels about his WORDS being posted over the Internet without his permission? Words are far more revealing about who and what he is, then any picture he or I have posted of him. Are not his words far more of a window into his soul then a mere image? And when his words are posted AND distorted, can this not be far more of an invasion of privacy then an image?

If he fell down drunk, can I not post an image of him drunk, falling in front of a bar. I can provide a caption, "Drunken Bynx, doing his usuals on Saturday Night," but the image by itself?

And what, as I said in my last post, if I cut and past his words, even using elipses, can I not depict him saying the opposite of what he believes? Indeed, if he was a celebrity, I could probably get away with both of these scenarios - But neither Bynx not I are "Public Figures," and he would have the ability to crucify me in a Court of Law.

This is point one - Words are far more revealing and far more dangerous to a persons life than an image.

There is an interesting conundrum in Bynxs position:

"It is expressly the kinds of photos posted by chato that I am strongly against."

What does this mean? That depicting people as closely as possible to how they look, and with respect to their humanity is inherenlty bad?

No doubt some of my pictures are not flattering. I am not attempting to either flatter or degrade my subjects. I am, as best I can, documenting reality, and trying to make my point, and using images to do so.

In an earlier exchange, I stated that I don't shoot the homeless in their misery. He replied that if I did shoot the homeless, that would be accomplishing a social good.

While I don't want to cast stones at those who document poverty, and I do not have a problem with such images - Aren't these real people? Don't they too have emotions, feelings? Are they proud of their present state? Pleased that everyone can see their dirt, their poverty, their desperation? And aren't these people the LEAST able to defend themselves from the abuse that a picture might imply?

But no, I'm not trying to make a moral argument about avoiding the shooting or writing about poverty.

To sum up. When we appear in public and when we speak in public we are opening a windor into our souls. This window is open to everyone who sees and hears you. The individual has no more control of this process, AND should not have more control over this process.

Bynx has given up the privacy of his opinions on this subject, (and no doubt other subjects) and his words are now on Google. "Bynx" +"privacy" +"photography"

Words, images, whatever - You "appear in public" and you have surrendered your right to keep those words and images private - And of the two, which poses more of a threat to Bynx? And if these words or images are taken out of context? He has the same legal remedy in either of these two cases.

If one has to choose between words and image, which is more a part of a persons persona? Are not words more revealing, more powerful, more of a threat then any normal image could possibly be? In the above post, Bynx states he has said some stupid things - Does this mean I can post them, under his name, and say - "Well folks, listen to the words of this fanatic."

Dave

Last edited by Chato; Sep 27, 2009 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Adding a point
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Old Sep 27, 2009, 11:41 AM   #133
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Ok Chato your position is clear. You dont care if your pic is posted or not. Thank you for your input. As for your lecture on words, who is talking about words? If you want to discuss words, go make your own thread about it. Just keep on topic, the using of other people for personal gain. I would like to have heard from others. This has been quite a busy thread so there must be plenty of opinions. Since Im not alone in my feelings there must be a reason for them that perhaps someone else can explain to me.
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Old Sep 27, 2009, 11:48 AM   #134
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Ok Chato your position is clear. You dont care if your pic is posted or not. Thank you for your input. As for your lecture on words, who is talking about words? If you want to discuss words, go make your own thread about it. Just keep on topic, the using of other people for personal gain. I would like to have heard from others. This has been quite a busy thread so there must be plenty of opinions. Since Im not alone in my feelings there must be a reason for them that perhaps someone else can explain to me.
"As for your lecture on words, who is talking about words? If you want to discuss words, go make your own thread about it. Just keep on topic, the using of other people for personal gain."

No offense but the discussion is about PRIVACY, not some imaginary personal gain. You choose to make this the topic - If posting an image violates your privacy, what then is posting your words?

You cannot attack my position and then DEMAND that I agree with you, and MUST limit myself to agreeing with you - examples of the logical fallacies in your postion are Not Allowed? I have to defend myself my sticking to YOUR criteria, criteria which I totally disagree with?

Your words, the good, the bad, and the ugly, are now on the net. No one asked for your permission - You choose to defacto give persimission simply by voicing your words -

Dave

Last edited by Chato; Sep 27, 2009 at 11:49 AM. Reason: addition
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Old Sep 27, 2009, 12:46 PM   #135
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There's absolutely no possible and fair comparison between voluntary words published by a person on the net or wherever and subrepticious picks somebody takes to personal benefit.

(BTW: bad joke yesterday Chato. Sorry for that.)
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Old Sep 27, 2009, 12:47 PM   #136
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... I suppose the way I should have worded this thread as "While browsing the Internet would you be opposed to seeing your image posted without your permission?"
That's a simple enough question.

And I've got a simple answer for it: If I'm not ashamed to be seen in public, I'm not ashamed to be photographed in public. If the image was of me in a place where I had a reasonable expectation of privacy, then I would object.
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Old Sep 27, 2009, 1:10 PM   #137
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There's absolutely no possible and fair comparison between voluntary words published by a person on the net or wherever and subrepticious picks somebody takes to personal benefit.

(BTW: bad joke yesterday Chato. Sorry for that.)
This post of yours is now on the net. I can find it on Google. Your other posts, likewise. Did you give anyone permission to post your words? Words which perhaps will diminish you to the reader? You choose to speak in public.

If I posted an image of you, without a caption other than your name, what would it reveal about you? An unfortunate zit? Bad teeth if you were smiling?

Which is revealing? Your words, in which you reveal your true persona, or a non descript image, which you reveal to everyone every day, simply by living, and appearing in public?

True, both an image or words can be posted to make you look bad. But is is far easier to slander you by posting your public speech than any number of images. Fortunately, the average citizen is protected against slander, whether out of context, snipped remarks, or a photographic image. Indeed, you are BETTER protected if your image is posted, then if your words are misrepresented, since you can sue, even if the image is a true representation of your activities, whereas the mere addition of an elipsis allows me to slander you at will. Or at least such a defense is a good option, whereas even if you were a drunken alchoholic, you could STILL get awarded damages if I posted a shot of you falling in front of a bar.

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Old Sep 27, 2009, 1:13 PM   #138
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While I've posted images of myself on this board, here's another. I would hate for someone to get confused as to who I am...




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Old Sep 27, 2009, 1:14 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCav View Post
That's a simple enough question.

And I've got a simple answer for it: If I'm not ashamed to be seen in public, I'm not ashamed to be photographed in public. If the image was of me in a place where I had a reasonable expectation of privacy, then I would object.
Thats all I ask. I guess it becomes a matter of where you would consider that place to be. For me walking to the store, minding my own business, is such a place. If I saw a pic of some crowd gathered for some particular reason and I knew I was there, sure I'd be looking for my pic and probably smile if I saw me. But I wouldnt feel the same seeing a pic of just me walking alone down the street in my neighborhood. There is a big difference between being a part of a large event which you can expect is being photographed. Its quite another thing being singled out where I can hope I have some privacy, and I mean relative privacy, while on a quiet street.
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Old Sep 27, 2009, 1:24 PM   #140
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As much as I dont want to talk about words since this isnt what the thread is about at all, I can see a parallel situation. "Would you mind someone secretly taping a conversation you were having in the street, not meant for public hearing, and posted on the internet for the world to hear?"
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